Wilsons, Wallington, Tiffin, Sutton – why so many applications? Are parents kidding themselves?

Tiggy - DD tells me that 4 or 5 of her classmates have told her they put Tiffin as a second choice in case they fell outside the very small catchment area of the comp. Interesting phenomenon.

Personally I think that this is happening as Tiffin is getting a bit complacent and the comp (I will name it - Coombe Girls - fab school!) has been putting a lot of effort into competing directly with them. It seems to be working. From info on the websites it would seem that Coombe girls has much better provision in several areas and the value added is much better.

Tiffin is now a school mainly filled with DCs who travel from far afield with local DCs being very low in number. Another downside for local parents who want their DCs to have classmates who live within a reasonable distance.

Yes, I think we fall into the category of 1 hour journey (well hopefully only 45 on a good day) since the local comp in Lambeth is not good enough. Not being willing to move we need to go for the selectives to avoid the catchment school.

I think I know enough from following this thread and others that all entrants are high achieving DSs and its likely to be a long-shot for ours.

(Our fall-back - if fail at the GS and Graveneys - is going to be one of the indies - with much easier entry criteria.)

I would agree tiggy that an increasing number of parents local to Tiffin are opting out of the process and using the excellent local comps instead. Certainly for girls, the provision for boys is less good.

DD is what most would see as classic Tiffin material but I decided against going for the test because of the intense pressure involved and my uneasiness about the kind of atmosphere that could be engendered in the school due to the effect on DCs of all those years of pressure. When I saw the standards being reached in the top stream of local girls comp i could not see any reason to go through all the stress to gain a place in a school I had an uneasy feeling that DD could be miserable in.

In several areas the provision at the comp seems much better than at Tiffin especially in languages which DD loves, so for us Tiffin would have been a definite second choice.

As DD spends most of her classroom time with others in top stream (generally level 5 SATs across the board) I can't really see what a grammar school environment would gain for her.

The area you are speaking about op, creams off the top whatever percent of kids academically, which means that the local comprehensives arent all that representative of the local population. If sitting five tests and perhaps doing bad at four of them is the option between paying out 15k a year for five years, before even taking university into account, then yes. parents can be as pushy deluded as they like because it makes fiscal sense
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Also, dont forget, that house prices in this area reflect not only london, but also these very schools. I live very close to nonsuch girls school, and despite the fact that we had only boys, and werent event thinking about it, our house cost a lot more because of its proximity to the school. dd who was born after we moved here will be sitting the test because there isnt really much other option.

If you compare the Bond papers with the GL papers (link lower down), you will see they are different, and can pore over how!

Other practice materials are more similar, but often with different question types too. From what I remember, children said the Graveney test was the same format as eg the banding tests use by other schools, but just harder, and that it was very similar to the GL papers.

I have no idea about Tiffin but I don't think you will find a definite answer for the other schools - they have decided what they will release, which is often not much, and that is that. I think they claim that this creates a level playing field because no one can prepare - they are wrong I think.

I would start practising a range of different types, and remember that is all anyone else can do, and that the skills are often transferable.

That I do no know but I've just heard that it is totally different. DS has just informed me that the VR/NVR exam for Graveney (and that seems to be the closest comparison there is) was different from the VR/NVR components of the Wilson's/Wallington/Sutton Grammar 11+ exams.

Sorry, not being obtuse on purpose' but a year of studying the 11+ Forum definitely gave me the impression that the Tiffin exams are markedly different and that seems to be corroborated by what's been written on Mumsnet on various threads.

The problem is that the exams are not 'out there' for parents to peruse at great length and in great depth and so it is all a bit of a leap into the great unknown.

I would agree with you stillfeel18inside. Some of DS's classmates weren't ever going to pass the 11+ exams and some randomly did the Tiffin Test who really had no chance but I guess a lot of parents think it's worth a shot....

I think that the Tiffin Test is significantly different to the type of VR/NVR questions in the Bond Books which is why it's such an anomalous exam.

To answer the original question, yes I do think a lot of parents are kidding themselves - and this particularly applies to parents living very near to any one of these schools. My kids attend/attended a primary school near to Tiffin and in past years, half the yr 6 class has taken the Tiffin exam - there's no way that half the class are Tiffin material! Over the past couple of years, as local secondaries have got better, less and less children (or parents) have chosen to take Tiffin - but still there are always children who are never realistically going to get in.

I know nothing about Tiffin, but ASFAIK, Graveney uses tests similar to the NFER ones (see here www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/advice/gl-assessment-nfer-and-letts/).

There are very limited practice papers of this type available, so people use the Bond and others. As far as I remember, Bond were the most different - probably still useful though. But I would search around and do a range if it is not possible to find out what type the schools you are interested in do, as they vary quite a lot.

Good luck

I think the Tiffin boys test is very similar to the Graveney one, although I don't know anyone who has done both, for a direct comparison. I believe at tiffin that in order to distinguish the top 140 scores, they include more questions than you can possibly hope to answer in the time. So no matter how fast you are, you won't run out. Otherwise you'd get too much clumping of results. DS didn't finish but got in last year. His was one of the lower pass marks but his own assessment of his level within the class now is that he's mid-top range. Without prompting (tho he knows some boys have done years of tutoring) he has said that you can tell who has been trained to get in, and who is just 'naturally' capable. I don't feel there is too much academic pressure - he's very happy, enjoys all his homework, gets similar amounts to friends elsewhere, although i sense that the 'level' is a bit more ambitious. The main pressure he is aware of is to be in the right place at the right time with the right stuff, and to toe the line, which is just what you want at this age. i like the massive mix of backgrounds and the 'its ok but not essential to be clever' atmosphere.

You are right of course - what they should do is have the type of generated for the year exam papers that Eton and the other top public schools have - which change year on year and would keep everyone second guessing. Only trouble is that they cost a bomb!

It would be interesting to note if there is actually a correlation between 11+ pass mark achieved and final educational outcomes at 16, 18 and 21 (or whenever higher education ends). I am sure I have read somewhere (but can't think where) that it does not necessarily follow that the ones who get top marks in the 11+ exams will do the best at particular secondary school milestones. Perhaps this is because a lot of those pupils are the ones who have been tutored to within an inch of their lives?

As I have said there was quite marked disgruntlement amongst some of the parents in Year 6 that one of the girls (who was tutored extensively but wasn't anywhere near top table material in previous years), did well enough in the 11+ exams to get a place at one of the girls' super-selectives. Whereas the generally very good all-rounder who did papers with her father didn't do well enough to get a place at a grammar school, although she did very, very well in the Wandsworth Test and got a selective place at Graveney.

I don't know what the solution is but the whole thing sits rather uncomfortably with me even though DS did well enough (on his own merit without a tutor) to get a place. But who knows, if he'd had a tutor maybe he would have got into his first choice?

Well maybe that's why our son didn't get into Wilson's, although I think that was the exam that didn't include any VR/NVR!

Personally I think you pick up the tricks as you go along - going through them with your child, although we didn't ever get to grips with those wretched cubes!

I actually thought the Heads reiterated that all the work is covered in the National Curriculum and they wouldn't be tested on anything that they shouldn't already be able to do - I thought that was the whole point. They seemed to be saying that children shouldn't be tutored!

my ds (who is at one of these schools) was tutored because i'm a sheep - even though we know he is v bright, we felt he might as well have every advantage going. he was very grumpy about it (but no biggy, one hour a week for about 11 months) i subsequently wondered whether it had been unnecessary and asked him what he thought. i was very surprised that he said it was absolutely essential, he would never have known all the tricks of the trade without it.

hi.i am very confused about the headmaster talk at wilsons...my son is a 5a in english and maths but it seems i have to have him tutored so does anyone know of a tutor in the croydon area?

Sorry I can't really help as we didn't use one. All I can say though is that the two in DS's class who were tutored for Tiffin got into other grammar schools but both were way down the ranked order for the Tiffin schools. So I think you need to decide at this stage whether you are going all out for Tiffin (which seems to require a slightly different approach), or take a more comprehensive approach to the 11+ which might stand you in better stead for the other grammar schools, Graveney and possibly the indies (but DS didn't do indie school exams so again can't really pass judgement on that side of things).

I don't think that Tiffin is necessarily more difficult to get into (have heard of boys who have failed all the other 11+ exams but passed Tiffin) but just a different type of test.

Sorry not sure that that is much help. Maybe you need to consider your DS's strengths in considering which one(s) to go for.

DS did five selective school exams and I think that was enough. DS likes tests/exams and is quite cool, calm and collected in such situations but even he started to get fed up with doing the tests. Only you know your child but if they are prone to nerves/stress you really need to consider how many bites at the cherry will be acceptable/doable for them.

Good luck - very glad to have this all behind us for a few years ;-)

Agreed that practice, practice, practice seems to make sense with focus on getting DS to answer all questions in time alotted.

I'm also interested in "tutoring strategies".

Not sure whether to just do practice papers on my own, or whether to get in a specialist tutor.

The trouble IMO seems to be that if you are going for a range of schools (like OP the four mentioned) plus Graveney plus an Indie or two or three as a back-up, then what tutor do you get. The received wisdom on the 11plus forum seems to be that you ened someone who knows the Tiffin test to make it worthwhile. Is that the same for the other selective schools?

Anyone got any views on this?

Well DS passed all three 11+ exam papers and was offered two of the three Grammar Schools on/shortly after Offers Day - he might have been offered the third but we decided to take him off the waiting list because we wanted him to have the certainty of knowing and preparing for a school with lots of notice.

DS was not tutored although we did practice papers with him in the lead up to the exams. His classmate who passed all four (and he got into Wilson's although way down the waiting list for Tiffin) was tutored but is very clever so not entirely sure it was necessary. One who is very similar in ability to DS failed by a few marks for all the ones he took. To be quite honest I would say they were the three brightest boys in the class and although the others are quite clever not sure that any of us were surprised that they hadn't passed.

Two girls also passed; one got a place at a grammar school and another at a very sought after SW London comprehensive (in the selective stream). The one who got into GS was someone who was always on the middle table until Year 6 but she was heavily tutored from Year 4 methinks. The other one is naturally an excellent all-rounder but curiously she passed one 11+ (but didn't get a place) and failed Nonsuch by a couple of marks.

I have said this on another thread but I think DS is very quick and this is what ultimately made the difference twixt him and the boys who failed. DS finished all his papers whereas many of his classmates did not.

Not in your area, in Essex. DD1 took the 11plus in the hope of one of two super selective. We had an English, maths and VR paper. We had her tutored for 18 months, determined to not be the type of parent that tutors and does bond books every evening. Oh how I wish we had!!!
I know of several kids who did secure a place by doing this who were not as 'naturally bright' as DD.
If you go this route, please do not believe the parents/teachers who say tutoring and practice not necessary. It so obviously is. And also importantly is your child's attitude.
Our DD did not get a place although previous years she would have got in with her score. But I do not, and cannot regret what it taught my DD who was so complacent of her ability. There are always kids who work harder and are pushed further and they are the ones who get a place.
You are competing against other kids, not a 'pass' or 'fail' mark. Your DC has to be more committed and work harder than all those other kids.

I agree about practice. As for tutoring, I am not sure it helps for VR/NVR IF he can get minimal errors to time and IF you can help him (there are apparently youtube vids and loads more stuff online). If that will mean rows, I'd get a tutor. Maths and English may be a bit different, and more actual teaching may help. It is all very well to say there is nothing not on the NC, but my children never got anything like enough practice at writing crisp, timed stories at school. they did endless faffing and redrafting. And clearly with maths i you have been taught to L6, you will find bits of the L5 stuff much easier - and therefore quicker. But you could possibly do that.

FWIW, both my children were 5a/5b poss level 6 in one subject each by the end of year 6. Neither could ace the VR/NVR style tests. Others who did less well in class could. They probably didn't practice enough but I think there is a knack to filling in those boxes quickly and accurately enough.

If he can get the right boxes ticked to time - go for it!