Graveney - Renting in catchment for admissions purposes

@teacherwithtwokids thanks so much for clarifying, I'm so pleased that is the case. Must admit, it also explains why someone I knew sold and purchased their property about a year and a half beforehand to secure a place a Langley boy's this year:). I couldn't agree you more re the unfairness of the whole good school/bad school bit. Locally for me the disparity between the two is huge. Lottery allocation is the only way forward which would resolve this, but like a previous poster rightly pointed out (think it was stockwellliving) it's unlikely to happen with most schools picking their own admissions criteria:(

EDUcrazy - Interesting about your comments and links on immigrant families. This definitely fits with my observations of children in DCs school. But it seems to me that the mc frenzy is partly to do with looking for schools with a demographic with a low ratio of EMA / ethnic minority / refugee families.

OP if you are looking for a school which is cynically determined to attract a certain demographic you could move to Herne Hill / N Dulwich and try for Charter, which has finally been caught out mis-applying it's travel route measurements in order to preclude a council estate. It claims to be demographically representative, but it's FSM % is roughly in line with Graveney's and way below the borough average.

As for 'admissions renting' and community - people may well find that their child makes relationships in extra curricular contexts, but as in areas of bedsits and fast rental turnover of itinerant young singles, it is far harder for long term residents to hold long term community driven aims if all the families in an area turn up for a bit and then scarper. How do you put a sustained critical mass of pressure on your local Cllr without a stable consistent local voice? How do your build and establish a street party if all the residents ? Build grassroots initiatives when the ratio of true stakeholders is diluted? If people were conducting signifiant levels of this kind of renting in my area and my LEA was not vigilant, I might well turn vigilante in their place. (not with guns at high noon, but with evidence sent straight to the LEA and the schools ajudicator, perhaps).

funnily enough, Furzedown, where Graveney is situated, has a very strongly developed sense of community and so the issue of people parachuting in for a year purely to get a place at the school is probably more keenly felt here than in other more anonymous areas of London.

The area is very well defined geographically being bordered by Tooting common, the railway and Mitcham Lane and has two primary schools plus Graveney, lots of 3-5 bedroom houses which suit middle-income families with children, and because it's not on the underground there aren't many people passing through

Local children who don't get into Graveney on distance are in a bit of an educational black hole and several get sent to schools which are miles away on the other side of the borough, which intensifies the feeling that short-term 'school' renters are cheating local children out of a place.

Stockwell Living - if you are prepared to look at moving permanently, maybe find out about that aspect - you would need an address by the end of October, but maybe it is doable?

Could you ask the LAs themselves what happens if you are in process of buying and selling, genuinely and can demonstrate this, but have rented short term in the meantime (if you are able to do so) so your child can apply for a place in your new area? I suspect the devil will be in the detail here, given the lack of definitions in Lambeth's and Wandsworth's stated policies, so there is no point in speculating here as common sense may not come into it.....

If you don't love where you live now (wherever that is ), it might be worth it.?.....you could pick a well endowed bit of South London and have a choice of one or two good comps, say, and the same random stab at Kingsdale/Graveney/selectives the others as anyone else.

The odd thing about S London is you can move a mile or two down the road, and the educational map seems completely different, as catchments are often so tiny.

EDU - I think my post was unclear, apologies.

My intention was to say that those who buy in catchment AND those who rent in catchment in the year or so before school applications are BOTH under scrutiny locally.

In both cases, having a newly rented / owned property (if of a suitable size for the family and if the family is actually living there) is fine AS LONG AS no other family house is owned at the same time within commuting distance of the school.

So family owns big house across town, buys tiny property in catchment for purposes of admissions - will be investigated as possibly fraudulent and child is likely to lose place if paper trail shows that big house remains liveable in by a family and owned by them.

Ditto family owns house and rents property in catchment.

However, family owns big house in Scotland, has to move to other end of country at short notice and ends up in a rented or bought property in catchment while not yet having sold old home- would be flagged up by address trail BUT the fact that the family could not possibly return to the old family homw and commute to that school will mean that the child keeps the place.

Yes, it remains unfair that some families can choose to move house (properly, ie selling one property and buying another) while others cannot (though private renting in fact makes moving easier and cheaper than a family selling and buying). Equally, it remains unfair that some schools are better than others and not everyone has a good local school to go to.

@teacherwithtwokids My issue with those that think it's moral to purchase a home in order to get into a new school is that financial muscle was used to secure a place, something those living in social housing, for example, wouldn't be able to do. Therefore making it unfair and as such, morally wrong. For that reason only, I think that those who purchase homes within a year before entry, for the sole purpose for getting into a school, should be under scrutiny and levels of investigation of those who rent - simply because it's unfair, inflates property prices in the area and impacts diversity.

I would appreciate also if someone can help me out with all this talk about being involved in the 'COMMUNITY' which many feels constitutes the right for a place at a school over and above another child. There was a report earlier this year which stated that unlike the olden days, we no longer even know the names of our next door neighbors (www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2127019/Love-thy-neighbour-We-dont-know-names-.html) and feel that this community that everyone's talking about doesn't actually exist. My son will be traveling out of the local community, so to speak, to get to school in September. A legitimate case I hasten to add. His community, I suspect, will be his school community. At weekends, he'll still be laden with his extra curricular sports activities and to see his mates, they'll pop on London transport. I'm quite pleased to know too that he'll realise as a result, that it's a big world out there. I suspect however, that I'm missing something in terms of what is commonly being referred to here as community and would love to be enlightened:)

@NeedMoresleep I defo am a Londoner, through and through!!! There's an article here that better explains the MC's SAHM's ability to better play the system in terms of securing a place at the top faith schools, for example www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1325596/Faith-schools-biased-middle-classes-using-points-based-admissions.html. There are many more. Moreover, I have two groups of Mummy mates, so to speak. The ones form my sons school, who would be better described as Working Class and those from my Son's Football team, who are defo more MC's. I am passionate about education and could have endless conversations on the topic, especially leading up to secondary school, with the football Mums, whilst amongst the school mums, I was deemed as the obsessed one on the topic (I'm sure secretly they would dodge me during the months leading up to selection and the d-day results). I would suspect also that just because two middle class parents are working, in this day and age, it still doesn't mean they can afford to go private to buy their way out - just a thought. Remember too, middle class is defined as a mindset, the actual money in the bank is a small contributory factor.

It was a MC SAHM mum from the football crew who was reeling off to me her long checklist of the activities she and her peers were doing for the church in order to secure a place at one of London's top faith schools. They still had to end up going private mind you (without going back to work herself) as they had overlooked the age he got baptised at which wasn't early enough.

The immigrant story is a different case entirely. Their success and aspirations defy all known statistics relating to those on low incomes and their success when it comes to education. There are some interesting articles here 1. www.jrf.org.uk/publications/educational-attainment-poor-children 2. www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/mar/29/homework-linked-better-school-results. Immigrants too, take nothing for granted and grateful for the educational opportunities here that many take for granted. The long and short of it is that aspirations is the key, not money or class, which is largely resident amongst the MC's and immigrants.

@Stockwell - quick question (possibly a silly one:), if the only groups worth getting into at Graveney is the top two steams (which I must admit I too have heard over the years), why the hassle of going there? Why not just tutor your kid to within an inch of his life (probably necessary to get the 100% needed to secure a place) and get a legit place that way. PS. Remember, I'm the one not passing judgement either way, more asking to save yourself the headache and the worry of getting the place whipped from under your feet:)

StockwellLiving - no offence meant to you as I know you are trying to do the best for your child. However if I was a parent who just missed out on distance and was appealing, I would be grilling the admissions authority on exactly what they had done to weed out those living at temporary addresses.

StockwellLiving - given what BeingFluffy says about alerting the school, did you not consider using a less specific title, username and keeping the school name disguised? One might think that this whole thread would undermine the success of any attempt to slip through a loophole....

Here, a house move is considered permanent IF the old house is sold or if it obviously not returnable to e.g. divided into student flats, condemned as unfit for habitation or 150 miles away.

It is considered suspect - in the same way as short term renting is - if the house is relatively local (but less favourable for school admissions). As I have said above, for the school I have knowledge of they have not 'codified' it into 'renting when you own another house is not allowed', but collect information about all addresses - during primary school + through year 7 - and investigate any changes of address which appear to play the system, in particular to determine wheher a previous address is still owned by the family. The onus is on families investigated to provide evidence that the move was for other reasons if a previous house is still owned.

Selling a house outside catchment and buying a new one within catchment IS, however, regarded as a permanent move. Yes, such a move could be done 'for a good school' BUT to move everything, become part of a local community and then go to the local school is not the same as moving while retaining another local house. If it became against admissions rules to buy a house in the vicinity of a school when you have nowhere else to live, then families who have to move due to job changes etc would be in a very difficult situation!

I heard a rumour recently about someone who had moved their child's school and rented a flat to try and get into Holland Park School (Kensington & Chelsea). The admissions criteria is sibling, then RBKC primary school and distance. I found it unbelievable but perhaps it is true. I know the council are alert to cheats for certain primary schools but I wonder if they are looking at secondaries too.

As OP points out, I think the school already knows this goes on (and likely doesn't really care). Local applicants will also already know .....

I think there is a risk that this thread has alerted the school and potential local applicants to what is going on. If I was a local family who just missed out on distance, I would certainly ask the admissions authority on appeal just what they had done to address the risks of short term renters taking places.

I wonder if there are any such stats?
Of course there won't be about ratio to 'system players'.

I have heard of children being hoiked out of playgrounds in Southwark, but have never heard of a place at Dunraven being revoked. Or in any Lambeth school.
But then I hardly ever hear about any places being withdrawn or refused on these grounds. Probably Dunraven's requirement that you provide a Council tax and utility bill at application stage offers some protection.

Educarzy are your sure:

"it's simply the middle class mums who knows how to play the system"

Do you live in London?

My perception is that middle class families with a SAHM can afford, as we did, for the mother to go back to work to buy their way out.

The scramble for places in decent schools is often by the less well off working families often, though not necessarily, recent immigrants, who are determined to do the best for their children despite limited resources.

So plenty of kids at a popular local primary "living" with grandparents and a lovely Latina mum we saw at the bus stop who tried for years before getting a place at a sought after out-of-catchment primary. When transferring the child, other parents were curious why she would take her child across town rather than attend the school down the road. Hard to explain that it was this very lack of ambition that she wanted her child to escape.

So what are you going to do, StockwellLiving?

I'm totally serious and can give you countless examples.

@AngelEyes46 For sure, some single parents have better support networks than others. Just having a read through the lone parent section is evidence of that. Some with no family support and no contact with dad resulting in only 2 nights out in the last four years to those having Mums that live locally. Nonetheless, I know of one mum with her mum living just a five minute drive away who works full time and permanently has grooves in her forehead from the pressure of it all - especially if you still want the best for your kids. In fact she has recently been signed off from her high powered job with stress.

But yes I agree, it's simply the middle class mums who knows how to play the system. It was a stay at home middle class mum who gave me the list of activities she was doing at her local church to get her ds into the likes of The London Oratory. However, she had overlooked, until the open evening, the need for her ds to be baptised before he was six months old, so went private.

@Mumwithtwokids Are you serious? That's outrageous. Usually you have to sign a book on attendance, or the priest really does have to know you well. Equally I know of a mum who put in that she attended weekly and her priest refused to back it up. She had a real tussle with him but he wouldn't back down.

@EDUcrazy and AngelEyes46 - There is a boys secondary school near me and the priest is required to fill in a form outlining mass attendance. Regular mass attendace results in better chances of getting a place.

Last September the headmaster asked boys within the school to raise their hands if they regularly went to mass. It transpires that most of the boys in the school did not take part in regular attendance (including those who had just joined). As I understand it parent's do not fill in these forms but seems that some of the forms are not reflecting the true picture.

Whilst I agree that there are a number of people out there who abuse the system which I completely dissaprove with, in this case it seems that it's not just parent's who are at fault.

yes - see your point although I have got single parent friends who do manage to do something like 'help at scouts functions' - her ds attends scouts so does fit in. I think the advantage the 'middle class' family has is that they know the game. As in above, move to the 'right' area when applying, move wherever after and yeehah for siblings, do 'just' enough in making yourself known to the church and you're in at your faith school. Tutor your kids (even if you do it yourself) and better chance in attending grammar.