Graveney - Renting in catchment for admissions purposes

@gazzalwForgot to mention too - Honestly, like you, I agree the lottery system is the only method that will bring about fairness and a change. I simply would never have been able to afford an expensive house near a good school, which means for someone like me who values education but who is also far from wealthy, under the current system of most schools, based on catchment alone, my ds would suffer.

In the schools interest, I would have thought that it must reduce the number of appeals also, because the system is so much fairer.

@Shangmundfrued Thanks for the further statistics which I wasn't aware of. I do quite a bit of voluntary work in diverse primary schools hence my interest. The strict parenting thing is quite true. What is also true, based on research, and little is mentioned about is that their educational expectations for their kids, is also extremely high. When I spoke to a friend of mine who is black and runs a Saturday school, his view is that the parents of the kids who don't do well, similar to those from the lower working class white groups, are simply too trusting of the teachers/school system and are under the illusion that the work they do in school is enough to make a change. The thought is that good parenting is deemed as the kids being clean and tidy, not allowed to stay out late, and having nutritious meals. There is less parental involvement from these two groups, which as most MC parents know, accelerates learning. Compare that to say Indian parents where there culture as such where your success as an individual is sole based on your education success, means that their kids doing 3/4 hours extra work after school, especially if the aim is Grammar school, is not unusual. The Chinese Tiger Mums, I remember reading, wrongly or rightly (that would of course depend on your values), with exception to Music, care little for creative subjects such as Art and Drama, for example.

@gazzalw Thank you too for your post which was also really enlightening. Too many great points to mention. I think there is a self fulfilling prophecy happening, fueled by the media which impacts, teachers and peer groups. I remember one Mother of a young black boy telling my about her son who'd won numerous awards for his reading ability in his previous private school. She had to move him to a state school, where his fabulous reading, a good 4/5 years ahead of his 8yr old self continued and congratulated by a fab teacher. When he moved into the next year however, the teacher put him into the middle ability group for reading. When she questioned the teacher as to why, she freely admitted that she hadn't even heard him read, but made the decision based on the size of the huge novel she saw him with, which she felt, at his age, would have been far too much for him. So put him in a lower group so he could build up to it. She of course wondered that if he had been white, if she would have made the same assumptions? Had she not been on the case, only heaven knows what other assumptions/holding back would have happened.

Equally, I agree too that from my experience, the secondary schools being selected by those that need the most help and especially from these two groups is often based on locality as opposed to academic achievements/pass results etc. Often too, they will pick the 'church school' because it is just that, a church school. Unfortunately however, there are good church schools and poor achieving church schools.

Maybe the schools, dominated by white middle class teachers, inadvertently and subliminally turn boys from Afro-Caribbean boys off education?

Have heard it said before that women from Afro-Caribbean backgrounds outperform all other groups in terms of earnings and achievements - so one gender is switched on to achieve and the other is switched off achieving....hmmmm

I wonder how well schools like Graveney and the Bolingbroke Academy will reflect the cultural diversity of London and do working class white boys and Afro-Caribbean boys (both groups appearing to be disadvantaged by the current system) who are at these much sought-after secondaries outperform peers at less prestigious secondary schools?

On other issues the "birds of a feather" scenario is I'm sure true - children (as generally adults) with similar backgrounds/outlooks/experiences will cluster together.

Personally, I do think a lottery system is highly desirable though - for all non-selective secondary schools. All children deserve the best education available not just those whose parents have the money and/or know-how to play the system to their DCs advantage.

What I think is a crying shame is children in care who are the first priority for entry to a lot of secondary schools. They deserve and need the best education to off-set other disadvantages stacked against them and yet I wonder how many children in care are at the best secondary schools in London - do the children themselves determine what secondary school they attend or do their guardians, based on locality of schools etc...?

EDU - Caribbean and African girls do routinely better than Caribbean and African boys. And earn more in their lifetime than white women from similar social backgrounds. Basically because they are more likely to work full-time after having children.

Caribbean boys do ok in primary, but often perform very badly in secondary stats.

I used to teach GCSE English retake in an FE college in South London. My class was full of black boys who were bright enough to pass GCSE English but had done bugger all work in school for years. Many had poor basic skills.

Someone mentioned the mothers of these boys being strict. Well yes, they were all frightened of their mothers, who would berate them in front of me in parent teacher meetings. Did it make any difference to their willingness to get their heads down and do some work? Errrr, no. It was profoundly depressing.

In fact, thinking about it some more, what the OP is possibly really looking for by mentioning skiing, is that she's looking for schools where the kids have a similar culture?

Ignore spelling of perform - Must preview before I send:)

The more I read this thread, the more I can't help wondering if in fact the real issue is actually one of race as opposed to wanting a better 'educational environment for your kids.

The huge number of stereotypes and assumptions littered throughout these posts, is simply astonishing.

Here are a few facts:

1. Overall, pupils of Indian and Chinese origin, out-performe both the average and the scores of white pupils.

1. Not all blacks are 'running for their lives' to avoid gang culture. Many, just like MC MNetters, simply want a decent education for their kids for decent educations sake. You only have to look at the intakes in private schools such as Whitgift and Trininty and something like 20% of the intake at Dulwich College as evidence of that.

1. The lowest academic achievers as we speak is amongst the white working classes.

1. Check out Nubian Ski and Ski Fest - two ski groups with predominately black members. Although, I doubt the OP had that knowledge when she made the comment. The assumption, I suspect was that is was a white MC pursuit only and the sheer mention of it makes me rather uncomfortable TBH. Is it that the OP really wants is a school where the majority intake is white MC as opposed to what I originally thought, which was simply an environment conducive with learning? I sincerely hope that I'm wrong however and that her true concern was indeed one of academic achievements, REGARDLESS, of the colour of one's skin.

1. Another sensitive area worth considering is that extensive research in Birmingham showed pupils at the starting age of 5, of African-Caribbean decent were doing better than the average white pupil. Heaven knows what is happening in the average state school that eventually impacts those figures.

Nonetheless, in all of this, I still respect the OP for her honesty in the first instance. More so in fact, for the other buried issues that have raised their ugly heads in the process.

I'm glad to hear Stockwell Park is improving - DH (and most of my friends) went there in the 80's and frankly I don't think it could have got much worse. It was scary and bloody abysmal. Having said that, as Blu said, Dunraven had a similar (deserved as I understand) reputation at the time. My DSs are there now and I couldn't be happier.

Someone mentioned Skiing trips? They do do one every year (just under £800 for a week) and every year it gets spread out amongst a couple of year groups because they can't fill the places from just one -both DS1 (yr9) and DS2 (Yr7) could have gone together this year, if I'd sold DD to pay for it... It's way way out of our financial league.

Go for it Twoterrors! I'd do it myself out of sheer curiosity but don't have a shred of a reason for enquiring-live far too far away to even think about considering it. Do know people with kids there though (legit!)

Lilian Bayliss has had a lot of help to improve, and from people who are really doing it with a desire just to see kids get a better education.

I am not at all surprised that Wandsworth BC seem to be the only authority (according to the experts up thread) with such wooly wording in their policies and who don't actually seem to care about this sort of practice. Having spent quite a bit of time over the last couple of years trying to work 'in partnership' with Wandsworth on a project in a disadvantaged, I can say with some confidence that this is not a council that prioritises these groups. Keeping the families in million pound homes (i.e. those also able to short-term rent in high-cost areas) happy to the detriment of everyone else is precisely their modus operandi. I hope someone from the Council reads this thread and begins to appreciate what the majority opinion about these practices is.

OP - Chestnut Grove is definitely worth looking at. I know some people (who meet all of your acceptability criteria ) who are very happy with it. It is a much improved school.

I think Stockwell Park and Lilian Bayliss are both massively on the up.:) I have worked obliquely with both quite recently and was very impressed. The staff I came into contact with were very caring and on the ball. Those results are great too. Better than some of the schools mentioned as desirable on this thread.

Well if you ask her precise information she might give it - she might give figures about who has moved out of Borough/catchment....and trends....

Shy bairns get nowt...you can but ask ;0

I'm betting ten jammy dodgers that she won't give out that information......

Oh I'm sure it's the estates and the gangs, not the school Blu.

The new Registrar at Graveney used to be the Registrar at Sutton Grammar School and is very, very helpful so she would probably give you these figures if you ask her nicely!

Just to go back to Graveney for a moment- the school will be able to find out quite easily who moved house while they were in year 7 , and where from and to, so anyone who really wanted to find out how much of a problem this is could always ask them for numbers. Probably more reliable than the rumour mill. Could be massive, could be tiny- but it is knowable.

Is that about the school, or the estate, do you think?
Evelyn Grace Academy is keeping kids in school til tea time to cut down the amount of time they may otherwise spend in the proximity of at-risk behaviour on nearby estates.

Really good people, good ordinary famlilies and fabulous young people make great communities on those estates, but they have all this to deal with.

Stockwell Park appears to be an excellent school in many years. But the more clued-up parents of black boys just want them out of the area, by whatever means necessary - they see it, with some reason, as a matter of life and death. And that fear spreads.

Durand primary, practically next door to SP, wants to build a weekly boarding school in Surrey in order to keep its boys away from SP.

Mmmm, schools don't measure the EB though or "do it" - it is just a measure of the children doing those subjects from those five academic groups. Yes, I am sure they will change their policies, but I do wonder where such low figures are coming from. If they are taking so many bright and average kids, why are almost none doing a fairly standard combination of academic subjects (after all GCSEs are not meant to be the preserve of the brightest - they replaced O levels and CSEs)?

It was Lilian Bayliss - but he was an idiot.

I know about the improvement in standards, and you can tell just from being out and about. It is striking. Lambeth - the polite borough.

I don't know - I think schools have been slow to catch up on measuring / doing the EB? I haven't got to grips with this EB business yet!

I had a look at Lilian Baylis - even their GCSE A-C inc Eng and Maths are only 0.1% below the national average, and that is a school derided publicly by some government minister, if I remember rightly.

All Lambeth schools seem to do v well aganst national averages, and from what I have seen the behaviour in schools has improved no end. My secondary school teacher friend says that schools where chaos reined in the 1980s just wouldn't happen now - a superhead would be put in etc. The new schools in Lambeth have stringent discipline structures, some have compulsory long days with extra curricular activities and homework until 5pm, etc.

Reputation lingers a long time.

I too have heard that Stockwell Park has been improving like mad.

Dunraven had a v bad reputation a generation ago.

That is fascinating - but its reputation has improved greatly in the last five years, despite I think taking a bit of a fall when the stats including English and Maths were published, and people are much more likely to consider it now if they have (or think they have) a choice. I have heard really good things about it.

The stats are good - but if I have read rightly, out of 94 high and middle attainers, only 9 entered the subjects that would make up the ebacc (none from the low attainer group but maybe that is to be expected). Now I know it is an arbitrary measure - but 9 (5%) in an entire year group doing english, maths, science, a language and a humanity (albeit arbitrarily defined) - what were the others all doing? Preumably not all RS - does this say something about the aspirations of the school?

Have a look at Stockwell Park's stats

More than half the intake are middle or high attainers , with middle attainers being the biggest group - although maybe this is always so statistically? And higherst attainers is the smallest group - but overall the stats for students achieving 5 or more A-C GCSE grades inc maths and english is between 68% and 70% every year for the last 3 years. Which I not bad at all, I think?

And yet it is, I would say, a school many Lambeth parents would put low on their list of choices and avoid if possible. I feel lucky and maybe complacent because I have what I consider to be a good choice, and there are schools I would feel much less happy about. Don''t know what I would do if Stockwell Park was my local school and none of my parent friends were choosing it - it does take a strong sense of objective detatchment to separate out reputation, peer influence and actual facts. The school has within it's catchment some of the most difficult areas for gang actiity - but of course those are the young people who are not AT school, or who have been removed to PRUs etc, usually!

It has 58% on FSM .

"My very MC white British DCs go to a very non-MC very mixed primary school."

And so do mine. (well, my kids aren't white, but whatever). Their school is 80% non-white and there are many disadvantaged children there.

However, there are also the children of university lecturers, teachers, lawyers, bankers at this school.

The problem is when you get to the year 4, and then in our area what happens is this.

Anyone who has money pays out shed loads for 11+ tutoring for the last two years of primary in hope of getting their children into the local grammars.

Or they remortgage the house and send them private for the last two years to improve their chance of getting into a selective school at the age of 11.

Or they up sticks and move to the south of the borough which is more expensive and where the intake for schools is much more m/c.

Or they apply for church schools. There are two or three fantastic church schools in the south of the borough and many children from my dc's schools go to these. As many of the (mostly African and West Indian) parents at the school are devout members of evangelical churches this is a viable option for them.

And those (like mine) who don't have the option of doing this go to the local comprehensive, whose intake is massively, disproportionately deprived, and where the social environment is incredibly tough and scary. There is a massive problem with gangs in my area and the school has not been immune from the problems these bring.

These schools are very, very hard places to learn and to teach. The children keep their heads down and try not to attract attention to themselves. My dd was sexually harrassed (verbally) in the most disgusting way within weeks of starting in year 7.

As a naturally articulate and reasonably bright middle class kid she was allowed to get away with MURDER academically and did no work through the whole of year 8. Because she was in class with her hand up and was able to talk her way out of trouble. But her written work was non-existent and nobody seemed particularly bothered by it. As long as she was there and joining in.......

Animula, thank you for explaining exactly what you meant. I agree with where you and Blu are coming from, particularly Blu's last line, but I read that bit of the OP's post somewhat differently: SP doesn't want her child in a minority of one (she may be wrong to be worried about that, although it probably depends on the school, but I don't think that concern makes her racist); and, separately, she wants some aspiration and ambition around her child (again, she may be wrong that there is little in her local school but I don't think wanting some is unreasonable). I really don't think she was conflating race/class with aspiration.

And I agree: the most fearful parents I have met are black parents of boys.

I think Dunraven runs annual ski trips doesn't it? So doing its best to ensure diversity on the ski slopes too?