Entrance to St Pauls/ Westminster / Eton

Bisjo I think that would take Valium in the West London water supply

Very sensible article Copthall but I wonder how many parents actually do what she advises?

Colleger I know that my experience is with girls at 11 but DD2s pushy London prep had them all ranked by how they had done in their internal exams, entirely based on achievement. It came as a shock to some parents when the daughters they had tutored and pushed into the top half of the class did not get in to SPGS, LEH, Godolphin but horror of horrors, only got offers from the Highs (which are all excellent schools by normal standards) but 4 girls who had come in the bottom half because they had relaxed parents, or dyslexia, or came from abroad etc. did. The excellent old Head of Surbiton High wrote a good article on it all, trying to inject some sense.

Can I add to the comments on levels. I think this is a London prep thing and senior schools expect a higher level from London kids than those outside because the preps are ridiculously pushy, and let's not forget the external tutoring!

My son tried to enter two London preps this year having come from an unselective prep in the West of England. One said he was an absolute moron and would only get into Stowe. The other said the best he could aim for, academically, was Harrow.

He has just been offered a firm place at Winchester and his computerised results at another school indicated he was very bright and should aim for the most selective schools. I know one boy who, within the classroom, is working two years ahead of DS at the same London prep that said they could do nothing for him. He hasn't got into the schools my son has. So I do think some senior schools, not all sadly, do think outside the box and not merely at exam results.

Sorry not familar with these levels but if the are based on SATs they are not that relevent, especially in an International School where they have lots of children with English as a Foriegn Language (and actually DD1s bright kids on the top table included a Finn who had only arrived three years before with no English but still outclassed most of the reading group I ran). They have uselessly broad boundaries and are all about achievement rather than ability, intellectual curiousity etc. the indy prep schools pressure these kids to get them to the top of the tables but they don't serve any other purpose. The good schools go out of their way to spot ability rather than achievement.

What might help you find DS's level, if not comparative with his class, is doing some verbal and non verbal reasoning, they are tests of ability rather than achievement and good schools include them in the exams. I found NFER best but that was a while ago, the key thing is that the score gives you a percentile of the overall population of his age group in the UK that your son's score has exceeded. Sorry Girls' schools again, but Lady Eleanor Holles, generally regarded as next most selective for girls after St Pauls in West London were saying that they expected that girls who got in would score at higher than the 95th percentile (also the figure for Russell Group Unis and Oxbridge), for Tiffin (state grammar school )it was the 97th. You should do a few practise tests first because within a quite low ceiling they do better with experience (I used to work with Occupational Psychologists, it was Scientifically proved this ceiling was 6-10 tests not that you would know it from all the tutors minting it on repeated tutoring and tests!!)

However as I said in my last post these schools are after more than just cramming, they all have a particular ethos and they know who will thrive there so they test and interview to find a type. I know it is difficult coming from overseas because your school will not say he's a St Paul's boy or you should go for..... but actually coming from abroad also gives him a big advantage, especially at the schools that don't have boarding. I know this sounds trite but you will know when you walk into a school if you are not too obsessed with league tables, results and the status your child being wherever will give you at dinner parties, whether it is right for your DS. I found it hard to trust but DD1 knew and she was right. DD2 had to prove she could succeed where DD1 had, but I felt another less selective school felt right. Guess where DD2 is going for Sixth form. Trust your instinct.

Schools also publish sample papers so that gives you some evidence on which to base a judgement .

Kingston Grammar School is great, don't hear any complaints, happy students and v. impressive Oxbridge, medics entry. Word is it knows how to stimulate and get the best potential from it's intake

KCS does 10+ entry as do many other London schools, ie, Emanuel, Kingston Grammar. I don't want to be a doomsayer but I think if your DS is hitting level 4s at the end of Y4, he is probably not quite in the league the top Independents such as KCS, St Pauls, Westminster, Winchester and Eton are looking for.

DS got L5's at the end of his Y4 state primary with a L6 in maths. At his London day school he was a bit behind when he started and has always been at the bottom of the top third.

DD got L5's at the end of Year 6 and did not get into the SW London High Schools, ie WHS and PHS.

I have also just got my DS's YR4 scores back. He has a 5C in maths, 4 (no sub level) in science, 4A in reading and 4C in writing. He clearly has a lot of work to do in his writing but we have been told that if he can bring his writing score up in the next year he will a good candidate for City of London school and other selective day schools.

I would say he sounds like he is at a level where aiming for these schools is realistic.

Here is the link to City of London Boys which does 10+ entry. They have sample English and Maths papers on their website.

www.clsb.org.uk/admissions/

City of London School has a 10+ entry (Old Grammar).

MGJO,as a northener i may have little to add to this thread, but from years in previous job of dealing with ex top public school types the winchester chaps always seemed nicer, more rounded folks than their peers from eton, westminster, harrow etal.
The new High master at St Pauls was head of the school some of my boys go to - he was outstanding, very academic, great with the kids, approachable, fair, reasonable, human, suitably strict but not excessive, etc etc , if i was in the market certainly for London schools he would be enough to swing it for me

MGJO We came back from an International School where they had only actually heard of one Girls' London Day School! But actually having done the 11 year entrance exams there with DD1 and here with DD2 I think it is a huge advantage. DD1 had some minimal tutoring out there, to bring her Maths up to end of Year 6 level because they hadn't covered everything yet and some help with English which isn't her strong point (turned out she is actually dyslexic ) and she got in everywhere. Certainly the very selective girls' schools are looking for potential and very much value the applicants having lived somewhere else. At her International School (on a level and with the ethos of a good state school) she sat on the top table of 5 but certainly wasn't the brightest in everything. Presumably you have some idea where your son sits in his class in terms of ability. And in spite of not being crammed she had absolutely no problems once she started.

Going through the process with DD2 back here was horrendous mainly as a result of parental panic and pressure. In fact so quickly was I recovering my daughter at the school gate so I didn't have to engage with it that I could have gone straight out with the SAS on a hostage recovery mission. The school, under pressure by the parents, became a cramming machine, and on top of that parents were engaging tutors left, right and centre. In the end it made no difference, in fact may have caused some to overheat and underperform. The bright ones got where they were meant to go regardless.

I would relax, let your son find his level, then in Year 5 come back, visit the schools, see which you and he feel are right for him. DD1 chose where she wanted to go, not the one the school had heard of, and the Head there got the name wrong when she announced it at her graduation! Talk to the schools about what they are looking for and want him to have covered, IME you will hear all sorts of hysteria from parents and the schools will be anxious to balance it out. Most of the schools will let you sit the exams in their overseas school.

For what it is worth I really like KCS and Hampton boys, seem very rounded and grounded and always happy at school, and the bright ones do very well. (Don't forget the schools with the best results get them partly as a result of selecting pupils who are good at passing exams in the first place, it doesn't necessarily mean your child will do better there, in fact may do worse if they lose confidence in such a bright cohort). St Pauls will suit the outstanding all rounder with lots of confidence but beware they may get a even fuller of themselves. Westminster is great if they have a quirk and a spark, it's a very stimulating environment but might be hard to keep up if they didn't have some sort of quirk to make them interesting. Eton is what it says on the tin, not necessarily for the brightest but will deliver you an all round patrician.

My personal experience is forget paying for advice on schools - I've spent a fortune at both well regarded school advisory services. They are only useful, IMO for: contact details of the schools concerned, information as to whether they are full boarding/day schools - therefore likely to empty at weekends. In other words they can't tell you anything that you wouldn't find out for free if you spent half an hour on the internet.

I've yet to speak to anyone who knew more than I did from a bit of cursory internet research. If you are looking for any 'insider' information - IME - you won't get it. Most of the time these 'experts' are anything but. Mumsnet is a far better source of information. You can always PM those with children at the school and speak to the schools themselves etc. Just IME of course.

I was told that a certain head teacher was well thought of (on one of my shortlisted schools). They were very well known so nothing extraordinary there. They seemed reluctant to be drawn into giving any opinion, especially a negative one. I am embarrassed to admit how much I spent! What a rip off.

Sorry forgot to add - Highgate is co-ed. Do you have a strong preference for boys only or are you happy with co-ed?

You can get copies of the Common Entrance past papers here
www.galorepark.co.uk/exam-papers-special/parent-copies.html

as well as relevant text books.

Gabbitas is a well known provider of Education Advice etc it might be worth paying for a consultation with them (or someone similar) to point you in the best direction.

www.gabbitas.co.uk/services-for-parents/

KCS will be offering A'Levels again from next year. I honestly don't know what the differences are. We made the decision very casually at the time, KCS was convenient and we thought it would suit DS so we didn't look further. We just thought we would give him a punt at the entrance exam and he breezed in. He has been very very happy there although I feel the school is getting more commercial and more focused on results rather than the overall boy and the all round experience than it used to be.

I can't really speak for the other schools but our DS is bright, confident, not overly hard working, sporty and musical and Kings ticked all the boxes. DS refused point blank to consider Eton or Winchester for 6th form. He is very impressed with the sportsmanship and genuine niceness of the Hampton boys and enjoys matches with St John's leatherhead - St John's isn't on the same academic plane though. We know many families who are incredibly happy with Hampton and who say it ticks all the boxes for their boys, especially when there are two or three boys from the same family and only one or two who would have got into KCS or St Pauls. That's not to say that Hampton isn't on an upward curve because it certainly seems to be gaining in popularity.

OP - if you need boarding specifically, have you looked at Sevenoaks? Also, have you thought about other schools such as: Kings Canterbury (dreadful rugby though!), Ardingly, etc.

I'd really avoid school's like St Paul's and Westminster, although less so, for an overseas boarder.

I was wondering about that but imagined StP's might have grown the boarders again.

I'm sure that you are already aware of this but there are hardly any boarders left at St Pauls about 30 and those that are there are mainly in the 8th (6th) form.

MGJO could you register your son to take the entrance exams for Collette Court and/or KCJS as a bit of a road test. If he does well enough in them to be offered a place he's probably on target to make the grade, with the right tuition, for common entrance at 13. Where will your son be educated between now and then in any event. Talk to the schools themselves because they all have significant Continental/North American cohorts.

Chaz obviously; the organ music is getting to me!! Oh Im sure Bartok has a sense of humour the fun of winding someone up watching them out in the garden in the rain to escape his music sort of sense of humour.