Another thread about tutoring

It is unfair- I did it, would do it again. It isn't dishonest but it is unfair. Many people, or even most people, are stuck with their catchment area school. I am a pushy parent- my parents were pushy parents and I am very grateful.
I don't call a selective system fair when you are selecting the majority of children for failure, before many have had time to show their potential. Winston Churchill would no doubt have failed if his parents had not had the money to bypass the system.

Did I say anything about poor black kids?????

It is the job of educational establishments to treat pupils with fairness (which does not mean giving them all exactly the same thing). Parents should seek to promote their own children's learning in all circumstances, in order to instill in children the idea that they themselves should seek to learn to their full potential in all circumstances.

"There is absolutely nothing "dishonest" or "unfair" when parents seek educational advantage for their children. Seeking advantage for their own children is what parents are supposed to do."

And devil take the hindmost?

What about the society we are creating for the future?

"Paying for private education, paying for tutoring for a selective school or buying into the catchment area of a good comprehensive are all the same- unfair.
Probably paying for private education is the most honest."

There is absolutely nothing "dishonest" or "unfair" when parents seek educational advantage for their children. Seeking advantage for their own children is what parents are supposed to do.

"The majority of DCs will fail- even the majority of MNetter's DCs!"

Surely not!

If ever anyone is petitioning to bring back grammar schools I say 'you mean bring back secondary moderns'. I really don't think they care. I am old enough to have been in school when the whole country was 11+ and the results were very divisive, with people having DCs at both schools, and often the results were surprising. I taught a girl in year 5 who was a real high flyer, not only grammar school material, but I would say future head girl of a grammar school. She moved to Buckinghamshire and one of the staff came in one morning and said 'Amy X failed 11+' we were all stunned.
The majority of DCs will fail- even the majority of MNetter's DCs!

I do think people have an idealistic view of grammar schools "Oh, for the days when the son of a parlour maid could get to be Prime Minister"

And the supporters just refuse to address the issue of the other 77% I think largely because they always assume that if they lived in a grammar school area their child would be a sheep rather than a goat!

There is no fair way. I think the lottery ticket system is thought fair, but I would think it very unfair to have a good education based on chance.
The only fair way is to bring all schools up to a desirable standard.

You are quite right - lots take that option.

You forgot "having the right religion" in there.

Paying for private education, paying for tutoring for a selective school or buying into the catchment area of a good comprehensive are all the same- unfair.
Probably paying for private education is the most honest.

Firstly the 'bright but poor kids' don't stand a chance these days- pushy middle class parents have 'bought' the place for their own child who probably isn't as bright.
Secondly, why do only the 'poor but bright children' deserve to be saved? It seems we just abandon the rest as 'know your station and stay there'!

You could argue that a grammar school is what 'could save bright but poor kids' from the 'cycle of poverty and street crime'. Personally I think that at best it would/does help a few. A total comprehensive school system (which incidently isn't about lumping everyone in together so that bright kids cant prosper or less bright kids get help) would be a simpler and fairer approach that would help many more children.

"It's easy to be idealistic when you live in the burbs. For some of these bright but poor kids the local GS may be the only thing that will save them from the cycle of poverty and street crime."

Well it might- if they had the remotest chance of getting in.........

Oh I'm not trying to pretend there are aren't some bad ones. Just sticking up for the ones that are good :)

Nice to know-I think that is the trouble of relying on TV etc- you get a false view.

I live in London and am very happy to do so. My children went to two of the best comprehensives in the country. They succeed because the catchment area is not cluttered up with grammer schools creaming off the most academically gifted children and the better teachers.

I dare say that if I lived in London I wouldn't like comprehensive schools. I wouldn't live in London.

Of course any type of school will fail some children, but I think we are trying to look at whether comprehensives fail more children or not?

Also what is your definition of 'fail'? Is it failure to achieve many/any qualifications and become a total dropout, or failure to achieve 5A*-C, or failure to achieve what they may have been capable of elsewhere? Very different things. By the last measure at least, unless you can know how any individual child would have performed at a different school it's difficult to know if they've been failed or not and the others also only work at a statistical level not an individual one to as all schools will have some failures on any measure, the question is how many is acceptable?

But I read somewhere that Britain has the biggest gap of just about anywhere between state and private education - much, much larger than just about everywhere else and to me that suggests that state schools in the UK (the vast majority of which are comps) probably are failing children somehow although there may be other explanations.

I can't think of a child that I know, personally, who has been failed by a comprehensive- they have all done well.
There are actually bad private schools! People complain about them on MN and you think ' why are you paying for it?'

"I'm just pointing out, seeker, what happens in a fully comprehensive system to clever children. It fails them, very often."

Not in my experience. Which is as valid as yours. In my experience any type of school could possibly fail a child. Or not fail them. I know lots of people. who have not been failed by the comprehensive system. And people who have been failed by the independent system. I do not because of this say that the independent system fails children. That would be silly.