Short school skirts "sending the wrong message"

I do tend to feel the main point of a uniform is that if you escape do a runner you can be spotted pronto and returned to your institution. Am not keen on the whole ethos of Team Spirit and Representation. A school should be good enough to inspire the young people affiliated with it, not force the trappings of belonging onto them.

I agree with the basic principle of a uniform in that it does instill an ethos of belonging to an institution, representing the school, and also removing some of the issues surrounding the appropriateness of items of clothing that may be worn left to free choice.

I do not however think that school uniform should be used as a 'stick to beat the pupils with', I mean what sort of crazy idea is it to forbid blazers being removed?

My children go to a non-uniform primary. They probably look a bit scruffy by the standards of the sort of people who think children in T-shirts and jeans are scruffy, but they are comfortable, nicely behaved and academically doing just fine. All the kids will go on to uniformed secondaries, and appear to adjust to that without complaint.

Incidentally, my year of bralessness, non-uniform shirts and general sartorial misbehaviour did not prevent me from getting the second best O'level results in my year and going on to Oxford.

And I continue to find 'smart' uniforms extraordinarily off-putting.

*teenagers, not younger children

I came to this thread with the intention of representing some of the views of younger children - not particularly because I thought they were right or wrong but because I feel all viewpionts should be represented. I think if you're making decisions that affect children then you should definitely at least understand what they think and why, even if you decide not to support their view points.

Now I'm actually thinking a no-uniform school may be best. I am not exactly sure about this rule in secondary schools but I think it's definitely good in primary schools (and I think children who went to non-uniform primaries would probably be able to cope with non-uniform secondaries). I do think it's still nice to have some unifying things though, maybe a school badge or school bag.

I would love it if one day I could be part of a school that was strong enough that they didn't need uniform.

Floradora, that's very interesting. I was just reading about some other peoples experiences of schools with no uniforms. I kind of get the impression that a school that is brave enough to go 'no uniform' (in the UK anyways) is just that - brave. And for a school to make brave moves, I think they have to be a very strong and together kind of school. And in the case of changing to 'no uniform', a progressive school which has such a strong enough ethos that the lack of uniform does not affect them. I could only find one person whose school went from 'no uniform' to 'uniform' and that was a positive move.

I thought this persons comment was interesting too, particularly because it also briefly brought up the subject of short skirts!

"I live in a country with no tradition of school uniforms - Germany - and it's great. I've never noticed a problem with 'label pressure' among the kids, and we get most of our clothes from C+A (yup, we still have those) and H+M, frequently second hand or hand-me-downs. It's definitely cheaper than having to get separate clothes that are only available for school.

Both my DD2's junior school and DD1's grammar school have a sort of school clothing which is entirely voluntary - t-shirts and hoodies with the school logo on. At special events we're asked to send the kids in with this clothing if possible, but no hassle if that doesn't happen.

I've never noticed any problem with lack of school identity or belonging, or with bad behaviour due to lack of uniform. My junior school in the UK had no uniform and it was very highly regarded. To be honest, if a school has to rely on some dodgy uncomfortable clothing to instil values, I'd seriously wonder about their competence and management in general. I want my children to learn important values - looking after others, being a good person, the value of hard work, a mature attitude - not being obsessed with all looking identical.

Most of the kids at school in Germany wear jeans and a casual top (t-shirt etc) - it's comfortable, practical in winter (nice and warm with tights underneath), and most importantly, clothing simply isn't an issue they fuss about. Unlike with uniformed schools, where there are constant battles with teenagers and parents about why it's somehow unsuitable to wear an expensive jumper that doesn't have a school logo or some other trite rubbish. And strangely, girls in the UK are far more obsessed with short skirts and looking 'tarty' than in Germany, presumably because in the UK many schools insist on them wearing skirts only, no trousers (so all they can do in a desperate bid for a bit of individuality is pull them up a bit).

So, IMO, school uniforms do seem to be rather infantile, pointless, and anachronistic. I think people are clinging onto them for the same reason that the AV vote didn't work - it's always been that way, and the fear of change and the unknown is just too powerful for many."

I have worked in both uniform and non-uniform schools. The behaviour was considerably worse in the one with uniform, and the rules had to constantly evolve to keep up with fashion, depending upon whether bootleg trousers or leggings or long socks or short socks were in vogue. Academic results were pretty similar in both schools but the progress ,learning and relationships (between everyone - staff, pupils and between different groups of pupils) were much more positive.
But, I do think girls need to be taught and reminded that different clothes send out different signals. The OP didn't say the member of staff actually said short skirts cause girls to be attacked - whether that is what is meant or not is soemthing we can only speculate about. But rightly or wrongly boys and men seeing very short skirts or very low-cut tops or very tight clothes will have sexual thoughts that have nothing to do with the character, brains or intellectual interests of the girl. I remember as a young girl (in a short skirt) myself, feeling pleased with myself that I could make men look at me by dressing a certain way, and feeling powerful as a result. what I didn't understand then and what makes me feel sad for my younger self now, is that the "power" had nothing to do with me or anything about me as a person or as a woman, it was pure biological impulse. A pavlovian response if you like. I try to say this as kindly as I can to young women I work with.

Floggingmolly, sure a uniform by definition doesn't leave much room for 'individuality and self-expression' but I'm sure if you go into most schools you'll find that for the most part children have found a way to still be themselves. The subtle touchs - a friendship bracelet, a hairclip, different earrings, wearing trousers instead of a skirt or vice versa, tights or socks, having a different hairstyle or school bag.

I think most schools have generic rules against those types of things but few take them as seriously as I suppose MoreBetas school. And I think that's probably because when you try and get rid of those, the most basic ways of clinging to some form of identity, then you risk stifling development and turning people into robots.

Dramatic talk I know, but it is possible.

MoreBeta, try reading this.
www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jan/18/school-uniform-results?INTCMP=SRCH

I'm not saying that schools should just ditch uniforms altogether, but it shows that uniforms are not the be all and end all. Strict rules and great results do not ALWAYS go together. FYI, although I went to a grammer school where everyone got great results. A lot of my friends got straight A/A*s at GCSE and good grades at A Level as well. Yes, I have moaned about wearing school uniform there and we were constantly being told 'tuck shirts in' and stuff like that but it wasn't really that bad. We didn't even have blazers (though I actually kind of like them), we had jumpers. And I'm sure you know that most of America and a good deal of Europe do not wear uniforms as standard and people out there don't all immediately fail at school because of it.

I can see why in these times of 'delinquent youths' many people may think the best option is to have more rules, reinforce rules better and a total crackdown, blah blah blah and yeah, maybe children do need more discipline but they also need respect. If you don't trespect someone then they will obviously not respect you back.

Some schools, like the one in the article, are opting to instead focus on actually getting to know their pupils, focusing on the big things like learning, re-establishing a want to learn and encouraging their pupils to develop confidence, identity and and respect for others. And I think if that works then good on them - it seems like a much happier and healthier place to exist, let alone learn.

I know my comments may seem like a bit of an over-reaction but I was honestly a bit scared by your comment.....maybe I was reading into it too much but they way you talk about uniform goes against everything I've read and learnt about child development and good practice.

Doodlecloud. There's no place in a uniform for "individuality and self expression". Why would there be? The clue is in the word.

Whilst I don't actually have a problem with 'strict uniforms' (I have been providing other views but not actually arguing for either side), a 'no taking of blazers rule'? I'm sorry but that IS cruel. And I try not to talk about my opinions as fact because I really hate it when people do that but if I had to wear a blazer all day today I'm pretty sure I would've passed out.

It's also a little worrying that you want 'no individuallity allowed'....I think most people who support even the strictest school uniforms do so becase they think children should look smart and presentable but still understand the importance of individuality and self-expression. Sure, sometimes sacrafices have to be made for the sake of professionalism but stamping out individuality should NEVER be the original aim.

Couldn't agree more MoreBeta.

Gaaaaaarghhh... this thread has been making me grind my teeth since last Friday!!!

Girls and boys who dress inappropriately for school send the following two message:

1. I am going to school today but my mind is not on my lessons.

1. The teachers have no real control and they dont care.

Our DSs school is the strictest school in town and the best academically and the two go together.

The Deputy Headmistress at DSs school took all the Sixth Form girls aside at the start of the year and basically laid the law down on what was appropriate on skirt length and revealing clothing. The Sixth formers are allowed to wear their own choice of smart 'office type' clothes and the lads wear suits or jacket, tie and trousers in a limited range of colours. The girls have more freedom of choice on what they wear and some girls pushed the boundaries far too far.

The school is strict on lower years uniform too. Boys not allowed to remove their blazer at all. Girls skirt has to be a prescribed length. There is a teacher posted outside school every morning who checks every pupil, hands out detention and letters sent home for inappropriate dress. I would like it to be even stricter with only school overcoats and bags allowed. No individuality allowed. The pupils look smart generally though and I like it.

Plenty of people wear a strictly enforced uniform in the workplace and children at school need to as well. It is neither cruel nor unusual. Men and women who turn up in the workplace inappropriately dressed used to get sent home when I worked. Sends out a totally unprofessional signal to be inappropriatley dressed.

Lets cut out all the faux outrage and guff about this. You are going to work and to school NOT a nightclub.

Our head used to say 'smart kids are smart kids' ie dress for work, that is why you go to school after all!

It might also be worth pointing out to girls, that a very short skirt that might be okay when sitting on a normal chair can reveal rather to much when sitting on Science/DT stools.

DCs school sixth form allows them to wear what they want, but has a few restrictions on the grounds of decency or safety (no sandals).

I agree with Bonsoir.

There are a lot of grown women who have no idea how to dress appropriately because it was never nipped in the bud at school.

Schools can have a "no visible underwear" and a "no visible torso or thighs" rule, that is applicable to all (boys, girls, teachers, other staff). It is inappropriate to flaunt your body in a professional or working environment.

Actually, I have mixed feeling about this. I think elaborate "smart" school uniform is ridiculous. And usually only imposed because parents like it. But if it exists, it ought to be enforced.

I agree, don't get me started on the fuss they make about ties!

As has already been said if the majority of schools focused on the issues that really matter such as providing outstanding lessons and dealing with bullying and disruption the majority of schools would be much much better. It's just so much easier to create merry heaven over skirt length and a sloppy tie than it is over the issues that matter. The comp we removed dd from was just like this. Completely skewed priorities.

I agree that one has to be very careful when discussing matters of this nature, especially when it appears that they've been singled out in a 'special assembly', as if it's an issure that affects only them.

Surely it would have been better to address all pupils about the appropriateness of dress and the situation in which it's being worn?

beingfluffy - I'm relieved to hear the teacher didn't intend the girls to think that they were responsible for inviting sexual harassment. And glad that she was concerned to hear how her message had been received. Just shows how careful you have to be talking to girls about this kind of thing - because that conversation doesn't exist in isolation, it will be heard in the context of all the other messages girls get about their role in society, some of which are Not Good.

Colleger, that's completely fine but obviously not everyone will feel the same way.

Nowadays I'm actually one of the girls who wears those tailored dresses AND a cardigan! Some of my dresses are still a bit short but very much in a pretty way and not a sexy/slutty way...they make me feel beautiful and classy but actually, they also make me feel a bit sexy too because I think looking classy is sexy. Maybe the line between feeling good about oneself and feeling sexy are just too blurred nowadays? I mean, the meanings of words do tend to change over time, no matter how annoying that is...

Having brought up sixth form clothes I have a point that bugged me sooo much in sixth form. The rules always seem to be about individual garments and not about the actual 'look' of someone which was what the school was trying to control when they brought in the rule about different garments in the first place. Although I understand that it's hard to have rules that aren't specific it meant that I wasn't allowed to wear shorts because they were too short even though they didn't look trashy whilst other people were allowed to wear skin tight leggings and trashy slogan t-shirts which didn't break the rules but looked even more unprofessional!

Maybe the shorts were not the best example but more recently I was working at a Primary School and had the same problem. I wanted to wear a nice pair of black opaque tights with a floral tea dress. I found I couldn't because all dresses had to be below the knee and mine was just above. I originally thought that was fair enough but then I found the girl next door wearing black slightly see-through leggings and, again, a tight t-shirt. She was allowed to wear the leggings because the t-shirt just about covered her ass but everything was still very much visible and even if she hadn't been working with kids, it still wouldn't have looked at all professional.

Even though I hate leggings, I ended up having to buy a pair so I could wear my dresses even though when you're wearing an almost-knee-length dress, it doesn't make a difference if you're wearing leggings or tights. And the other girl and a couple of teachers too carried on wearing leggings which allowed you to see their panties, tags and all, whenever they bent over.

I'm with doodlecloud on this. Schools have a right to impose a uniform code, and to set rules as to skirt length. But have a separate talk for girls on what messages their clothing sends feels weird and sexist.

I'm not sure what messages I was sending when I was 13 and an older boy groped my breasts in the school corridor, when boys would ping my bra strap in lessons or or when another boy fondled my bottom on the school bus. Or, when at same age or possibly even younger at 12, grown men would wolf whistle at me in the street (most of the time I'd be wearing my huge, long, beige raincoat - impossibly sexy obviously)

But the message that the school was sending me was that I was just another anonymous pupil in a throng of 1500, and I certainly didn't feel I could approach anyone about it.

Schools would do a lot better to lecture the boys as to what constitutes sexual assault and make sure they are not massive anonymous places and that every pupil has someone approachable to talk to if they are having problems. Also to come down hard an anyone doing stuff that is actually illegal.

I really hope the teacher wasn't equating short skirts = sexual violence.

I think the skirt thing is an issue though but mainly about respect for others.

If I wanted to be affronted with arses I'd be an extra for the human centipede.