Can average children be pushed to get 'A' at GCSE or is it setting them up to fail?!

I think it's really interesting how so many in the UK believe intellect can't be significantly developed. Having lived and worked in Asia the mindset seems different. It's thought that children can grow up to be 'gifted'. Hard work and purposeful practice can bring about neural changes that will develop an average intellect (whatever that means) into a superior one.

I could predict - with frightening accuracy - within my own peer group, who would go on to have children who would be the A and A*s, drama scholarship/exhibition winners etc. Not the children of necessarily the most intellectually 'gifted' peers but those who had a competitive spirit and enormous drive and ambition that they would almost certainly instill (where possible) in their children.

What happend to those youngsters with 'tiger parents' who got their children to do NVR, VR, Maths and Kumon etc for 10 minutes a night from the age of 5 or 6, who established a non-negotiable homework routine and instilled a broader intellectual curiosity in their children? These children often succeed academically where others didn't. Superior, mythical talent is often prolonged hidden practice. Whether these things are desirable is a different argument. There are exceptions too, of course.

Nothing wrong with an average child being motivated to work hard and get an A at GCSE - exam results are (almost always) a combination of ability and effort. Just like all successes in life.

If the child is being pushed to the point of being unhappy and stressed then that is a different thing.

It is possible, to some extent, to make up for natural ability through sheer hard work, but only to some extent. I have a feeling that on this thread many people are referring to average pupil when what they really mean is not particularly high-flying but still above average. Can a really average pupil get A's or A*s? I don't know - possibly in the odd subject that they might have an aptitude for.

However, I don't think changing schools will make much difference; if the latest league tables tell us anything, it is that achievement at 16 very closely reflects the attainment levels of a school's intake at 11.

OP, there is not much to be gained by worrying about pushing. All you can do is give your DCs the kind of support that yellowtip outlines.

It doesn't sound like any of your DCs are what I would call average children. Are you teachers, or do you know many children?

I very much second marriedinwhite.

In hindsight I can see that I've never 'pushed' my DC. I have to say they're too strong minded on the whole, so pushing would most likely have been counter productive and would also have implied that they weren't doing enough of their own volition.

The most I've done is to support them to get to a decent school, after that (Y7), it's pretty much up to them. During exams I try to keep a lid on the wilder excesses of the siblings etc. and hand out regular meals, but I never intrude on the substance of their work - that's up to them.

I'm sure an A grade at GCSE can be wrung out of an average pupil. I'm very unsure that the process of wringing it out will prove positive though.

My eldest five are roughly where married's DS is, give or take an A* or A or so.

I think it depends on the child and whether as a parent you want them to fulfil their potential (not necessarily academically), lead an enriched and happy life and learn to be independent.

Our ds is uber bright, 11As and one 1A. Didn't kill himself and if he were to work to his full capacity he would be a genius. At the age of about 12 he said to me "I'll pretty much get As and once they're on a certificate nobody will know whether I got 76% or 100% so I'm not killing myself for the marginal benefit.

Our dd is top average and very hard working and will push herself to her full capacity. It is likely she will get a combination of A*s and As.

Only time will tell which one will be the most successful in the long term but my ambition for them is that they both end up doing things they love and are happy. I'm not sure a child who is over pushed ever truly succeeds once they have to work under their own steam.

wordfactory if you want to see the breakdown by attainment, go to the DFE website and look up your school.

However it doesn't surprise me that a private school with a mainly professional intake gets excellent results. It's also worth bearing in mind that SEN doesn't necessarily mean low attainer/predicted grades, neither does EAL.

noble obviously I don't know the whys and wherefors of all the pulis but the ISI report says the ability profile is mixed with 'a fairly wide spread of abilities represented.'

There are certainly pupils with SEN who receive learning support. And there are girls for whom English is not their mother tongue.

It is a private school and the intake is from largely professional backgrounds.

Example papers which are on the boards websites are well known for being easy as they are there to give an idea of the type of questioning. For Business Studies, there are 2 exams and a controlled assessment. Depending on the board is the style of paper 1 (Edexcel use multiple choice, whilst AQA don't) but the 2nd paper, where the higher marks are generated are long answer questions requiring a lot of analysis and evaluation.

Business Studies actually has a lower A, A* statistics than most 'academic' subjects due the complexity and maturity needed to be when in the answers for the higher mark questions and controlled assessment which are completely underestimated due to the negative snobbish attitude given the subject

Those saying that GCSEs are easy should bear in mind that they are designed to be taken by 16 year olds, and someone far older looking at a Business Studies paper (for example) will have the benefit of experience lacking to a secondary school student.

wordfactory - what do you mean by 'not particularly selective'? I would be very interested to know the percentage of students are designated 'high achievers' and 'low achievers' at KS2 going into your school for a comparison!

My school, which, as I said is high achieving for a comp has under 50% of its students being high achievers. Thomas Telford which is the top comp in the country has 67% of its students as high attainers (and only 1% low attainers). For comparison, I looked up a school that doesn't get great results - 45% of its students were low attainers at KS2 and only 15% high attainers.

It is possible that you think that your school is mixed, yet actually most of the students should be getting good results anyway, given the KS2 starting point and don't actually represent the 'average student'.

"mycat" DS would certainly agree with you there; he breezed through his GCSEs, getting mostly As, and Bs in some subjects he did virtually no revision in, but is struggling with A level Chemistry and working really hard at all the others to get good grades.

It's a massive step from GCSE to A level in the sciences, at least, imo.

hmmmmmm i was going to mention a levels.surely the point of getting good gcse results is that you then carry onto a levels - ds was pretty much an a grade gcse student with a bit of tutoring but a levels are a different kettle of fish.much much more difficult i am told.

cinnamonnut, yours must have been a different syllabus/board then; I idly decided to do a business studies practice paper one afternoon with zero reading/prep and got an A, as it was all just multiple choice

It was a bit like those questions on the driving theory test, like, why should you raise a casualty's bleeding arm in the air:

a) to make them visible
b) to stop them bleeding on other people
c) to slow blood flow to the wound

An average child can do very well indeed with the right support and the right attitude.

The grades at my DD's secondary school attest to it. It is not particularly selective (not fully comprehensive academically, but certainly mixed) but the GCSEs are superlative. Almost 100% getting A-C including English, Maths and an MFL. The A*-A grades are around 70%.

If expectations are high and the girls do the work then the grades will come.

mumblechum1, I did GCSEs last year and didn't find them difficult, but business studies was one of the subjects which involved a little extra thought, analysis, application and evaluation.

My elder DD is at a superselective and while it should be possible for all the girls there to get As it is by no means a certainty. Even if they have ability, lack of motivation, poor teaching (a messed up controlled assessment) or even bad luck on the day can mean the difference between A and C grades for example.

I am sick of hearing that GCSEs are easy. They are not. I think they are much better taught than they were in my day, and the exam boards are clear about what gets the marks. The average children I know are happy to get Bs and Cs and are realistic about their abilities. I think the parent needs to be realistic and encourage but not put the pressure on.

Maths teacher here. I work in a high achieving comp with an excellent maths dept. I would say that only our top three sets have a good chance of getting an A or A so maybe 40% of our students have a good chance, but not all of them manage it. The national A-A rate for maths was 16.5% last year, and just under 60% got A*-C.

So I don't think that merely changing school would push an 'average' kid (smack in the middle for ability) to get an A (it could, but it would depend on why the kid was getting average results previously). 1-1 tutoring outside of school could swing it, but not guarantee it. It would also depend on when the tutoring started.

I wouldn't recommend pushing a child beyond their abilities either. I once taught a student who had target grades of A* for everything based on her KS2 results. This did not reflect where she was at at school and she ended up having a breakdown under the pressure to achieve.

While it is also possible to cram kids to get them an A at GCSE, this isn't necessarily in their best interests if it then gives them the idea that they can tackle A-level. Despite having the grade, that doesn't necessarily mean they have the ability.

kelvinthroop.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/comparing-past-present-grades/

Hope this link works

I'll find the link that explains it, just a sec

Don't know how old you are Bluebell, but personally I can only relate to O level (GCE) grades. A star or A grades at GCSE are equivalent to grades A to C in the old O level system. Not sure how a child of 'average' ability can be expected to attain an A or A star at GCSE when I thought that 'average' attainment was a Grade 4 CSE, not even an O level.

I had a chat with head of a not wildly academic prep school last night - they absolutely believe that good teaching will get majority of kids an A in GCSE maths. Interesting I thought.

It depends.

You definitely cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but if the child is reasonably able and, crucially, willing , then it can be done.

An average student who is not that motivated - forget it.

Some years ago I went for a look at a prep school for ds. Apparently it was popular with Premiership footballers + Wags. Anyway, the Headmistress said to me that her heart sank as yet another footballer sat in front of her, thumped the desk and said he wanted his dcs to go to Eton. And then Oxford. I suppose that's a bit disparaging about the brainpower of footballers' offspring, but really says that all the dosh in the world can't buy top grades.

If you are not pushing to get the best grades, isn't that in itself setting them up to fail?
Telling a child that an A is out of their reach because they are "average" is not going to motivate them to work to their full potential IMO

Personally I think that with lots of effort, hard work and encouragement, "average" children are capable of exceeding people's expectations.

Isn't it all about teaching children to aim for the best?