Outstanding state secondary or grammar?

flusteredandtired2 It's all a bit complicated, but DS1 started at a Grammar school elsewhere in the country and we moved to Gloucestershire when he went into year 9. As they also had grammars, we managed to get him transferred and assumed it would be the best place for him. We therefore didn't know all that much about the school before he started - assumed it would be the better school. TBH, I doubt he would have got a place at the good comp, as it is always oversubscribed.

We had to start looking for secondary schools for DS2 within days of moving to Gloucestershire and at that point were renting in a different catchment to where we are now so the alternative to the grammar was not so appealing.

We have since bought a house in the catchment for the good comp, so had a realistic alternative for DS3 when his turn came.

Coming a bit late to this thread, but as someone who has children at both an Outstanding comp and at a mediocre grammar, I personally, would not say a grammar is a be all and end all.

The older 2 DC are both bright and deservedly got places at the boys grammar, but both have underperformed and we have not been impressed by the general attitude of students or of final results. Yes, a lot of it comes down to the individual child and to some extent the parental input, but if the school is not behind them, then they start at a disadvantage.

Still early days with regard to DS3 at the comp, but will be interesting to see how he does at GCSE in comparison to his 'brighter' brothers.

Or enquire on here - under a diff name if you wish - about how good your outstanding school actually is.

And look at A Level results and uni destinations - gives you an idea of what the high flyers can achieve.

Hang around the area at school chuck out time and see if the kids look like the kind of kids you'd like as your kids peer group - even better get the bus with them. Gives you quite an insight.

Well, find out what makes it 'outstanding'.
Have you visited? You can generally attend Open Days a couple of years before your application year. Find out how each ability band achives (actually you can find an awful lt of this on the Governments education website on the individual school profiles), how the top bands do, what facilities they have, how broad the curriculum is, how many languages, sciences etc.
And do the same for the Grammar, too.

You have hit the nail on the head with your last sentence! I'm sure the comp is a great school, but that doesn't mean it will suit every child.

Is the grammar in a grammar area, or a 'super-selctive'? What if either of the DC don't make it to the grammar ( many v bright children don't get into super-selectives because of the sheer numbers in the race), what would the alternatives be if you move? Bright kids can have a bad day on the 11+ day, (one MN-er at least is dealing with that).

Often top streams of comps have comparable results to grammars and other selectives.

You can't really make a decision on broad type of school - it has to be a comparison between specific schools, and in the context of the child.

I went to an outstanding comprehensive with 1600 pupils. I was bright and do not feel that it catered for my, or my brother's, needs in anyway. i had to put up with a LOT of class clowns and bullying whilst being left to "get on with it" by the teachers. I would definitely go for a grammar if it was an option for my children as they would be more likely to have the opportunity to learn more languages and to be prepared for the top Universities in a way which my school could never have managed.

To be honest it depends on how bright they are my mates child has just got in to a grammar school he scapped by he was on the reserve list

She had to put him in summer school and he has 2 hours of tutoring a day and he still didn't get the mark I think he will struggle with the work load

A child like this I feel would of been better at the local outstanding church school

If your child is nt very very bright they won't get a better education at the grammar they will just be behind

On the other hand my son atteneds a outstanding secondrey which is in the top 25% of schools in the uk last year they had two attened Cambridge one won a scholarship to MIT in the states and the h ave 89% a-c pass rate in the core subjects

Flustere I would be careful when it comes to year 6, and the hypocrites among those with no older siblings. If there are any Independents etc. around, you will find a few are sneaking off, or having days off when the entrance exams are on.

If there are no grammars around, a big enough Comp can have quite an ethos of achievement in the top sets. But it has to be one with heads who push and celebrate achievement (whatever form it takes). Motheroffives experience is very different to mine, my DS has lots of revision classes, life in the top sets is very stretching. But if you are in a grammar area, the comps would be lucky to be able to do anything like as well.

hi
I,m on the 5 th child through a "good" catholic comp.Even my 5th child now recognises the two tier system grammar school ed presents.If religion isn't a priority get them to a grammar at all costs especially the boys!They aim for the top.Reputation will mean it is in the schools interest to up grades.Opportunities and aspirations,confidence......oh I could go on and on....the energy required to achieve in comp is unbelievable from parents and children alike e.g teachers now not providing revision classes as"budget cuts"so pupils hung out to dry!of course the dedicated hardworking committed teachers are in the comps/state but they are the exception and I thank them from the bottom of my heart.The world is an unfair place but that is reality.
It's tough being the unpopular parent
and you will make no friends.Is that more important than regrets for easy decisions .

TRicky. I'm a grammar school parent so probably have a biased view.

Locally. the grammar schools are superselective and IMHO this turns the "comps" into secondary modern schools of the old model- with a high vocational/apprenticeship bias and little to offer the academic high fliers that either chose not to try for grammar or didn't make it. An over generalisation- there is one locally that is " academic" in reputation but that is it.

My mate does have truly comprehensive schools in her area and they are great.THey have to cater to the academic children because they all go there as well as the less academically able. It seems to work.

Grammar school entry is varyingly competitive (some schools taking every child who gets above a certain test mark and others just taking the highest scorers down till they are full- often a very close cohort of marks).Don't move to a grammar area is you have any concerns that your kids may have a bad day or wont wan to sit 11+. The pressure is there I guess. Work is fast paced and not repeated/recapped like at other schools. Extra curricular areas are strong too and kids do juggle both pretty easily.

In your situation TBH I'd probably stick with a really good comp

Depends on the children and the grammars.

From what you've said of both your dcs I'd say they sound better suited to a good grammar - but not all grammars are better than all comps. My dh sounds like your ds and he was failed by a good comp - too easy to get away with cruising and not working to the best of your ability in a comp. My dd is like your dd and is loving the challenge of her grammar - was v bored at primary as always far too easy - depends on the grammar though.

I'd agree with checking options for later - check that triple sciences, languages etc are available acc to your priorities - Latin was important to me so was one of the things I looked for; not available in many comps. You really need t visit and speak to as many parents as poss with kids at both preferred schools to guage where your dc would flourish more.

We moved to be in catchment for a the grammar (well, semi-selective actually) for my dd - who cares what other mums think. It's your dc and you know what's right for them.

Its funny how you mention the differences between your two DCs, would you consider maybe sending one to grammar school and one not if thats what they wanted?

I teach in a selective area (at an 'outstanding' comp') and we get loads of DC that have siblings at the two local grammars, but they themselves didn't want to take the test. They often come out with very comparable exam results too.

Our two local grammars are single-sex and I think that you can definitely see an effect, the girls do really well at the school and the school itself attracts good teachers and has strong leadership. I have friends that teach at the boys school and they are constantly shocked at the standard of some of the teachers. I also do private tuition and two of my pupils are boys from the grammar who do not feel that the standard of teaching in this particular subject is good enough (in fact in recent exam results their year group did not do as well as our top 3 sets, which are of similar ability).

I think you have to find out more about the teaching at the grammar, do you know people that go there rather than just looking around? Do they seem to offer a full range of subjects at GCSE and A Level too, rather than just the more 'academic' ones? I would also consider the extra-curricular side of it. Our local grammar schools are very pushy on certain sports and music to the exclusion of lots of other interests.

Good luck!

Chocolatecrispies, your grammar sounds just the same as the one I went to! It bears no comparison to the excellent education my DCs are getting at their comp. And I mean all-round - academic, sport, music, drama, DofE, exchanges, curriculum-linked trips, sport-llinked trips ...

I went to a very well respected grammar school and to be honest it was terrible. Lots of very bright girls who would do well whatever and so the teachers just didn't bother to make it interesting. We all got excellent exam results but at the expense of 7 tedious years. So don't assume that the grammar will necessarily be more demanding - after all they will all still sit the same exams at the same ages.

Would you be moving to a grammar school area or going for a grammar school that is mostly surrounded by comps?

If its the sort of grammar school that has no catchment area as many of them do, I'd be inclined to put the oldest one in for the test and move if they got in.

I wouldn't move away from an outstanding comp to an area where it was all grammar schools and high schools, because I don't think the benefit would be great enough to make it worth moving and there would be likely to be the same level of distraction as at a comp, but it may be worth if it's one of the particularly high achieving grammar schools. If it is one of the higer achieving grammar schools, I wouldn't move until you had the place, because a lot of very intelligent children who deserve a place just don't get on as they are so over subscribed.

I think it's important to consider the type of child you have. Like a poster above said, a child who is very bright at primary can get lost amongst the super-bright if the school is a very selective one. It's just as easy for some DCs to give up because they think they're not good enough as it is for others to cruise if they are not challenged.

We're sort of in this situation. Well not quite, we already live in a grammar school area. Am going to go and have a good look at the comprehensive. It's very hard. Our problem is that school think ds2 has a good chance of getting him, but I'm not at all convinced it's the right school for him.

Quite simply, it depends on the child.
How would they cope with the grammar school pressure?
How self-motivated/competitive are they to work hard at a comp where they may not be being pushed?
How easily led are they if at a school which has pupils that do not want to learn?

DD1 is in yr10 at a 'good, with many outstanding features' comp.

The year group is split into 2 random halves and set within each, so around 30% in top sets. So I would a think the top sets contain a wider range of ability than a grammar school.
On the whole, it suits her as she is not easily led and wants to do well.
She was at a private, selective (7-18) junior school. but we mved her for year 7 - partly for financial reasons, partly because she hated the pressure.

DD2 is in yr4 at a 'good' state primary school.
She is easily as bright as DD1 (although shines more in different subject areas). Don't know what she would be like under pressure as never tried. Seriously considering entering her for a super-selective, but she 'does not see the point'. Gut feeling is that she could easily go off the rails if sent to the school her sister is at or similar.

I live in a selective area and it's painful to see some very bright children not getting in. After all it's all down to one test.

Luckily I have the option of sending my DC to a fantastic comprehensive which provides them with the education I ideally want them to receive.

In your shoes I would go for the comprehensive,but I would also say stuff all the other mothers and what they might think.