So how does English education really compare with other systems?

"Brits are already working in Hong Kong, The Middle East and Europe, for our children it will be a case of the world is my oyster"

In the thread about learning Mandarin a (Chinese?) poster accused some Westerners of being insular and arrogant. Hush but I think that he/she was talking about you :o :o

Sure there is a world wide reverance for Eton/Harrow/Oxbridge & Co. Sure that will open doors for your child. But it is a tad a naive and perhaps arrogant and insular of you to imagine that the world will automatically be an oyster for a monolingual grad with a 2ii in Media Studies simply because he is British.

I knew a sportsman when he was a teenager who does now hold a world record and an Olympic Gold. He never thought he would be able to compete at that level either, but a University chosen for its sporting prowess that also did the course he wanted to do, refired him and gave him opportunities and he went on achieve great things.

I believe a lot of what we end up doing comes down to luck, our social lives and being in the right place at the right time. So character, determination and 'other halves' carry as much weight in the end as education.

Agree, interesting OP.

On ds's school report there is an explanation of the levels "This is average/above/below the level expected at school X".

So what? Very good that he is top of the tree (or not as the case may be) when compared with other children living within a two mile radius of the school. But I would like to know how ds measures up when the day of judgement comes and he has to compete against those of similar brainpower from all over the country - Europe and the world, even.

darrowby that's really interesting because the German system has been lauded here recently for providing real differentiation between academic/not academic, with the emphasis on the not academic schooling being 'just as good' as the academic side. From what you say, it sounds absolutely horrendous.

US high school start earlier, and charter schools have very long days.

Okay OP I think UK schools are okay on the whole, and even crap ones can turn out a few pupils who do okay. EG. DH and I went to schools which when league tables came out were competing to be bottom (for the whole of England) we both have doctorates, they were crap schools but we survived, and they are doing much better now. Private schools in the UK have also improved, people didn't used to send kids there for better grades but "better discipline", and schools which used to give a half day holiday for someone going to Oxbridge now send pupils every year.

Brits do like to moan. Also the perception that state schools are awful, comes from the media, where people predominantly live in London, and also want to justify why they send their kids to private schools.

I went to a state school on the UK, DH went to a private boarding school in Ireland, the DC are now in state-run international schools (ie lessons partly in English) here in Germany. I hate hate hate the German school system, but I suppose in some ways the standards are very 'high', in a very restrictive academic sense.

The state school system is incredibly elitist, with very few comprehensive schools. Everyone else is divided after year 4 (age of 10) into one of three schools - grammar schools, 'Realschulen' and 'Hauptschulen' according to their grades in years 3 and 4. The grammar school is effectively for the children of professionals, the Realschule prepares people for skilled manual work, and the Hauptschule focuses on ensuring people can read and write enough to become labourers or shop assistants. Of course after only 4 years of school the place they end up at is largely reflected by their own parents' level of education.

The school system is largely based on continual tests and assessment rather than actual learning. Grades are everything and kids soon become disillusioned with actually learning content and are simply out to get the best grades - whether they learn anything along the way is irrelevant.

However, DD1 (13) is now in year 8 at a grammar school and I think the actual level of what she is learning is incredible - far more analysis than was expected of us at the same age. She's given a topic - diabetes, Copernicus, Beirut - and expected to produce a fully researched analysis plus competent Powerpoint presentation to the class. I think what she's doing is at a higher level than I had at O-level, perhaps because the school is so academically selective.

The downside is that it's incredibly stressful for the kids, and there's no alternative home schooling (illegal). DD1 has been suffering psychosomatic stomach and headaches, other friends have other stress-based illnesses. The grammar schools have the attitude, 'if you can't deal with it just get out', but obviously the other schools don't prepare kids for university in the same way (and DD1 is pretty academically competent and would get bored elsewhere). So I feel German schools have a very weird, traditional and inappropriate way of defining intelligence and academic success - it's designed to exclude people rather than include them.

The good thing is that the schools only start at 5.6 to 6 years, which gives more time to relax at nursery. In Berlin the last year of nursery before school is now free of charge (sponsored by the state), so everyone can send their child, and get prepared for school. However, very few nurseries teach letters or numbers, so if you don't do that at home your child will be disadvantaged from the start.

And - this is worst of all - the schools start at 7.55 every morning. Surely that's against the Human Rights Convention!

I don't know if things have changed alot in the last 20 years but I had rime at a French School, a rural UK comprehensive and an American High School. The French system was terrible, my UK school was great at English and humanities but aimed really low on maths and science, my US school took the most enthusiastic approach to education and enthused it's students the most, and was v ambitious with maths and sciences, but not great at English and terrible at humanities.

I don't look at other EU countries and see great schools, and the US is often criticised (although it's universities are praised), maybe the Far East is impressive academically but I'm not sure about emotionally. Is there any country whose state education is seen as a beacon of academic and social education?

You also have to remember that Brits love to criticise themselves. It wouldn't be British to recognise our schools are OK.

What's IB BC ?

Very interesting OP I think.

Both DH and I are products of the English private boarding sector - neither school was selective, both in fact rather 'minor public school' status. We are both self-employed now; property rich but cash poor.

Both our DDs are in state, day education. Not being your typical high-flying uber-achieving MN children they are not at the grammar but at what is actually a secondary modern (given that true comprehensive education does not actually exist in grammar school areas).

At the moment I am happy with the fact that they are happy; they are learning; they are recognised as individuals at school and stretched/supported in different subjects as appropriate. They will come out with perfectly good results - probably not a string of A*s but I doubt that intensive tutoring from the womb followed by a super-selective high octane high pressure education would have got them those either.

What they will be equipped to do is to think for themselves, be able to get along with all strata of society, have a real understanding of the different ways people live and the pressures they face and be rounded people.

That's what I want for them; they get it from us at home and they see it through a different prism at school. Ultimately I want them to decide what they want to do/be, and I will help them do it.

What school you go to and how much you are pressurised to 'achieve' is not the be all and end all of education in my book.

My children have been to 3 schools in different countries (1 international, 1 IB, and 1 BC) The education in the UK is absolutely fantastic compared to the education they received abroad.
Your question; how will they compete in a globalized world? Look around the globe, how many Brits are already working in Hong Kong, The Middle East and Europe, for our children it will be a case of the world is my oyster.

Whatever floats your boat! Living in London is my idea of hell but if you want to be 'globalised' there then you go ahead.

I suppose it all depends on what we mean by 'average', 'globalised' etc. I earn above-average wages but not stellar. My bosses wages are more in the stellar line, despite leaving school as soon as he could. We are part of the globalised world in our little backwater - we import and export - but then the Brits have been doing that ever since the Empire was invented, it's not really a new concept. BTW our Chinese and Indian suppliers are cr*p; the idea that everyone in the BRIC nations is going to do us out of jobs might be a bit overstated.

Education is only the first step of the ladder and doesn't necessarily dictate outcomes.

Sorry senua but I am at the other end on this one.

I was living in an average town with an average job. As soon as I got enough post grad experence to be attractive to a London City employer I was out of there. Now I am part of the globalised world. And I am very happy :)

Hopefully my DCs won't have to languish for years being average like I did.

"compete in a globalised world"

This is the bit that I don't get about current employment concerns. My DS is good at sport; at one stage we thought that he might become a professional sportsman. Then as he got older and I saw the level of the competition and pfb-ness wore off, I realised that he is never going to be World Number One, he is never going to bestride the 'globalised world'. He is going to be Mr Joe Average, with an average job in an average town - just like everyone else. As long as he is happy and holding his head above water, that will do me.

I've gone slightly off topic but, seeing as he is above average intelligence (natch, he's a MN child) with supportive family and goes to an OK school then IMO he will come out of the education system well-enough equipped.