Tutoring in seondary schools

Boring!

Posting on some AIBU about some DH who want do any housework is quick becoming more interesting so unless you having anything to say apart from quoting from earlier posts ad nauseum and going 'Gotcha' then I'm out of here. And in case you haven't noticed, I am the only one feeding you. Once I'm gone you'll have no one to feed you inbetween your self medication sessions

"Same poster. I didn't think that "Pooshtun" quite describe me in the context of you. Hence the new name."

Good to see your true colours!

"Many of the socks in my draw has holes = my draw is full of socks with holes."

Anyone who thinks 'many' is the same as 'full of' needs English tuition!

CumbernauldMathsTutor Thu 29-Mar-12 21:01:41:

"I am in favour of tuition for those who really need it, in Maths and English, and at reasonable rates for reasonable teaching."

PooShtun Thu 29-Mar-12 23:27:23:

"Cumber - Are you against tutoring or are you against them being paid what you consider to be an exorbitant hourly rate?"

Anyone who can ask a question that has already been answered also needs English tuition!

You are not trying to prove my point about literacy problems in many adults are you?

"Now your objection is because children who can't get decent GCSE grades."

OldMotherDismass Thu 29-Mar-12 23:34:11:

"PooShtun - what happens though when they get on that highly selective course or university and once there, without the tutor, they cannot keep up?"

PooShtun Thu 29-Mar-12 23:50:39:

"My DCs are too young for this to be a real debate"

Have you not noticed this forum is about Secondary schools? Where did I mention "grades"?

"That's right Cumber. I really want to win an argument with someone that is regarded as either a troll or a joke"

"I keep coming back because I don't give a feck whether someone's MIL is being unreasonable or whether someone should paint their wall blue or lilac. To the mum asking about how to motivate her 15 year old son, ITS TOO FECKING LATE! You should have asked this question about 7 years ago."

Who is on the wrong forum and who is trolling?

An English tutor would probably need to charge you something like £50 per hour!

"Change in name by deed poll or another poster?"

Same poster. I didn't think that "Pooshtun" quite describe me in the context of you. Hence the new name.

"Now that IS distortion, although it might have been bad comprehension rather than deliberate"

Many of the socks in my draw has holes = my draw is full of socks with holes. I've tried to simplify what the other poster has said. If you think I am distorting the situation with my socks then you definitely have a comprehension problem.

"there may be quite a large number of school children who need tuition in Maths and English at GCSE level but don't get it because their parents can't afford it?"

You are changing your argument now. Before your objection was because children who are struggling with maths and literacy can't get help. Now your objection is because children who can't get decent GCSE grades.

"The reason you keep coming back to address me is to win your argument!"

That's right Cumber. I really want to win an argument with someone that is regarded as either a troll or a joke :o

I keep coming back because I don't give a feck whether someone's MIL is being unreasonable or whether someone should paint their wall blue or lilac. To the mum asking about how to motivate her 15 year old son, ITS TOO FECKING LATE! You should have asked this question about 7 years ago.

Change in name by deed poll or another poster?

"I still think that you are distorting what other people have posted."

You asked me a question of which I had already posted an 'answer', so you can't have read my posts properly.

I have made clear and consistent statements and highlighted the contradictions made by many posters. If you think that is distortion, please prove it, point by point, not by vague statements.

What about this:

I said : "Many English and Maths teachers who are useless."

Poster changed it to: "I really have zero time for ignorant comments like the country is full of bad teachers"

Now that IS distortion, although it might have been bad comprehension rather than deliberate.

"If I was poor and my kids had maths and literacy problems and the school can't/wouldn't help and I couldn't afford a tutor THEN I would tutor them myself. Simples."

Look what another poster said:

"I don't think I could tutor my child to the standard required these days. I have neither the patience nor the skills."

"Of course there are parents who can't be bothered but why do you think the same apathetic parent would bother with a tutor if tutors were more affordable?"

The majority of parents are NOT apathetic so would you agree that there may be quite a large number of school children who
need tuition in Maths and English at GCSE level but don't get it because their parents can't afford it?

"Nah, you just like to argue."

The reason you keep coming back to address me is to win your argument!

mnistooaddictive,

I apologise for any distress caused. But you shoudn't take any comments here personally. As you say this is an anonymous
forum. I am arguing against something which I believe is wrong and is causing damage. I am not attacking anyone personally.

Let us see if we can agree:

Why could you not provide ONE AND A HALF HOURS' TUITION FOR £25?. You would have absolutely no additional costs or
travelling involved, simply an extra half an hour of your time while you are already on site.

Cumber - tutoring maths does take the amount if preparation I claim. I do not just put a textbook in front of my students but use a range if different types of resources. This takes time to prepare. How do you know if you haven't done it? Most people do travel to work but do not travel an hour for every hour they work. For more normal jobs you may travel an hour each way but work for 8 hours in between.

We will never agree because I see myself as a mother providing for her children by providing a high quality service that is in high demand. You have turned me into the devil. You are very aggressive and state opinion as fact. I will not engage with you anymore. If you really wanted to do something about poor education you would do something about it in real life such as volunteer in struggling schools. Instead you verbally attack people on an anonymous Internet forum. How does this do anything?

"If you read ALL the posts of the poster YOU have quoted you will see what I mean"

I did and I still think that you are distorting what other people have posted. I'm not going to waste my time posting quotes and stuff because you are either trolling or you genuinely believe what you are posting. Either way, engaging you on what others are supposed to have said will go nowhwere.

"What does NOT pass for fun for me is that so many school children in this 'First World' country become adults with poor literacy and numeracy skills because their parents have been priced out of the necessary tuition that would have made a difference."

If I was poor and my kids had maths and literacy problems and the school can't/wouldn't help and I couldn't afford a tutor THEN I would tutor them myself. Simples. One does not have to be a degree qualified mum to take ones kids down to the library and to encourage them to read.

Of course there are parents who can't be bothered but why do you think the same apathetic parent would bother with a tutor if tutors were more affordable?

"That is why I am "determined to argue to death".

Nah, you just like to argue.

"I feel you have taken my comments out of all proportion."

I have quoted EXACTLY what you said. You have been contradicting yourself.

People travel to work at their own expense don't they?

You don't need to buy books every day.

Printing is also not done everyday. Photocopies are quite cheap.

Tutoring Maths does not need the amount of preparation that you claim. You would find out at the very first lesson what the
student's weaknesses are and with the experience you have would instinctly know how to tackle them.

"I earn £8 per hour. I could earn more cleaning."

This is misleading. People do private tuition because they are making good money out of it.

What makes you charge 'only' £25 per hour and not £35 per hour or more like another tutor:

"I charge £35 per hour or more - - -

Lots of affluent parents pay for their unmotivated children to to be forced to work/revise -I usually have a number I see
for many hours a week in the run up to the exams for this purpose. They are invariably boys! This probably helps them to
perhaps get a grade higher than they would otherwise, but without self motivation its hard for tuition to make much
difference."

andisa,

What I said was: "Many English and Maths teachers who are useless."

You changed that to: "I really have zero time for ignorant comments like the country is full of bad teachers"

That is a great distortion. At least you should have the time to read comments properly.

"Areas of low literacy and numeracy are linked to deprivation and poverty"

I have repeatedly said that those who need tuition the most do not get it because "affluent parents" pay exorbitant rates
for superficial tuition, and I have quoted a tutor's post to prove my argument.

So if you find my tone aggressive, it is because I am trying to make a point to reduce the "deprivation and poverty".

CumbernauldMathsTutor Thu 29-Mar-12 21:01:41

"I am in favour of tuition for those who really need it, in Maths and English, and at reasonable rates for reasonable teaching."

PooShtun Thu 29-Mar-12 23:27:23

"Cumber - Are you against tutoring or are you against them being paid what you consider to be an exorbitant hourly rate?"

I would have thought my 'answer', which came before the question was clear enough!

"You appear to be taking these different posts and mashing them together into a single argument"

Actually my point is very clear compared to the self-contradictions of the posters I have quoted. If you read ALL the posts of the poster YOU have quoted you will see what I mean.

What does NOT pass for fun for me is that so many school children in this 'First World' country become adults with poor
literacy and numeracy skills because their parents have been priced out of the necessary tuition that would have made a
difference. That is why I am "determined to argue to death".

'£36 per hour + costs of travelling to the teacher, in the hope of improving from A to A* in MUSIC. "sacked the teachers who
weren't doing a good job".'

:o @ Cumber.

One poster is talking about the costs built into her/his tuition fee.
Another is talking about music teachers.
Whilst another is talking about A level tutoring.

You appear to be taking these different posts and mashing them together into a single argument which you are determined to argue to death until you run out of people that will seriously engage you. Is this what passes for 'fun' in your part of the world? :o

Sorry if I was snippy - our tutorials are not usually led by postgrads, they are led by academics, but we have fewer of them that the post-92's I've seen. The expectation of the post-92's is that academics will spend a good deal more time teaching than in the research-intensive universities.

OldMother- You've taken the the wrong way. It was a look of deep thought :)

My redbrick Uni had severe budget cuts so tutorials with lecturers were sparse. Those that survived were led by post grads. I always imagined a RG Uni as being different

Interesting posts. It's fairly clear you can add so much beyond school by encouraging independent study whether on your own steam or with a tutor to help. School teachers can only do so much in a classroom however good they are. They can't put the information in your head for you or give individual attention. I still remember the whole process of learning to do stuff for myself in revision etc. That's what gets you truly ready for Uni, if that's where you're heading. Not a matter of just being able to spout the information, but being able to take your learning into your own hands. Some kids can get there by themselves, others might benefit from a tutor to steer them (good tutors won't be hand-holding). All to the good.

PooShtun, you can at that comment as much as you like. That is the reality of it. You say yourself, you didn't get your degree from a RG university - I did, plus a PhD and am now an academic at one. The job of an academic is not to hand-hold dc's through their degrees, but to encourage a love of and enthusiasm for the subject. Lectures and workshops are there to provide focus and guidance for students, but ultimately they must be self-motivated because no-one will nag them to get coursework x, y, z in as they did at school. If coursework is not in, it is not marked and the student is awarded zero marks, if coursework is late it will be penalised unless the student has good reason. If a student doesn't turn up for lectures, workshops etc they will not be chased, they will simply increase their probability of failing.

Coaching children into their A or A* grades and then expecting them to have enough self-motivation (suddenly), when they are used to everyone else pushing them and having motivation on their behalf, will not do them any favours in the long run.

Dear cumber,

I do not enjoy your posts. I find the tone agressive - hard to tell when it is just an internet forum so I hope I have have misread this - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

You do not have evidence that literacy and numeracy is poor in this country or that teachers are bad. Ofsted is not reporting bad teaching.

Areas of low literacy and numeracy are linked to deprivation and poverty - it will take money and years of turning around attitudes in education to change this. Many if not Most teachers are dedicated.

Please don't ask me to reply as I really have zero time for ignorant comments like the country is full of bad teachers - we could say that about any profession, social workers dealing with abused children usually get it too. It is immoral.

"these same researchers do not have time to mark lots of assignments from undergrad courses with a couple of hundred students on them and still produce world-leading research"

I never thought about it like that. Food for thought.

PooShtun- tbh, I rather suspect your friends DD will fair much better at a post-92 than many highly tutored apparent A-graders fair at the "old"-universities. As I said, I am a lecturer at a RG institution, dp is lecturer at a post-92. The post-92 students generally get much more support and contact time dedicated to them than students at the research intensive universities. Conversely to your impression that the RG universities give much more tutorial work and individual assignments than post-92's they actually give much less. By their very nature, research intensive universities require research to be done and these insitutions attract lots of the best researchers from around the world to be employed as academics. However, these same researchers do not have time to mark lots of assignments from undergrad courses with a couple of hundred students on them and still produce world-leading research. In this respect, the ones that get good degrees from these institutions did so by their ability to be independent in their learning (it is after all called "reading" for a degree and not "being taught a degree") - those who can only achieve high marks with intensive coaching are therefore unlikely to fair well in the research-intensive institutions and would be better placed at post-92's (where they probably wouldn't need tutoring to get the grades needed to get in).

OldMother - I agree with you as long as we are talking about highly competitve schools/universities

A friend's DD is currently studying for a hotel and leisure management degree at a former polytechnic. In years gone by the offer requirement would have been BCC or similar. Her offer requirement was ABB such is the demand for Uni places these days (the recent fee hike will no doubt bring down demand but that is for another thread)

She had to have serious tutoring in order to satisfy the offer. But now that she is in, I think she is predicted a strong 2ii with 2i being a possibility.

I'm not a RS grad so I am just generalisating but I suspect that there would have been more tutorial work and more individual assignments than is found at a second tier institution like her's so the DD would have probably struggled to keep up with her peers there.

My point is that just because a highly tutored grade student may struggle at Oxbridge does not mean she will struggle elsewhere.

I accept that a lot of parents tutor their kids to get them into prestigious institutions but there are many who tutor just so that their kids can get into a university. I don't think that your perspective holds water when it comes to this latter group :)

My course is a highly competitive one at a RG university. Entry requirements are three A's with two of these being in science. I have been a lecturer for a long time and have seen a lot of students come and go. It is often not the ones who have just scraped on who fail (and a large number do fail year 1). It is the ones who think they can coast it and expect the same level of support they got at school. In comparison to you being an A grade student who got a 2ii, I scrapped to get on my course, but finished with the highest marks in my year (1st) and a PhD from a prestigious university.

OldMother - Just read a couple of the urecent posts up thread.

friend's DS was being tutored by a University student (I don't know for how much) because he was struggling a bit. after a lot of hard work the DS scored some As, mostly Bs and a couple of Cs in his mocks so his dad thought - problem solved - and the tutor was let go at the end of the 2011 term. Well, he had a set of tests recently and he is down to a few Bs and the rest Cs. Oops.

I'm guessing that the dad will restart the tutoring this Easter. The DS is quite lazy and lacking in self motivation so even if the tutor nurses him through his GCSEs then there is his A Levels.

So, yes I agree that tutoring a weak kid is not doing him any favours but if the DS or his dad decide that Uni is not for him then at least he will have some decent GCSEs/A Levels to go job hunting with.

As for students failing in their first year, in my experience those tend to be the ones that just scrapped in despite only having to satisfy modest grade requirements. I managed a 2ii despite not being a Grade A student so if one is a Grade A student, albeit a turored one, then I would expect them at least to get a Third rather than fail in Year 1

My DCs are too young for this to be a real debate for me but I would rather they get into the Uni/course of their choice and THEN worry about them keeping up :)

A good teacher is good for the kids but a good tutor isn't, according to some posters here. I don't see the difference.

PooShtun - what happens though when they get on that highly selective course or university and once there, without the tutor, they cannot keep up? We see this time and again (highly selective course, competitive university). A very high proportion of students fail in their first year despite being apparent A grade students.

Getting them into university is the start, not the goal - once there they have the opportunity to really begin their future career.

Cumber - Are you against tutoring or are you against them being paid what you consider to be an exorbitant hourly rate?

If it is the latter then I pay more than that for a personal trainer. [dammit, just set myself up as a target. Quick. Don't make eye contact :) ]

If it gets a DC onto the highly selective course or Uni they want then it is a small price to pay.

@cumber You clearly have issues. The way you keep stressing 'music' as though it's some kind of bizarre subject that people shouldn't be taught. Many many young people have instrumental lessons (that is what that other poster was taking about). Since many state schools offer little or no instrumental tuition, what are people who are musical supposed to do? Forget about music?