German or Mandarin?

French is the most common language taught in school, but i have never seen a pupil who learn French at school and is able to speak good French at all. So the problem lies in the way school teaches the language, not the language itself.

I was going to say Mandarin of course until I read Tiago's brilliant post.

It was through studying German that I really learned English grammar. Because English doesn't inflect accusative/dative/genitive cases, it's hard to understand their nuances without learning a case-accented language. German is very useful for learning how to write and think very clearly in any language, or how to unpick long sentences and rewrite them in simple ones. Which is a highly sought-after skill these days.

Across a career I think it is very difficult to say that this language or that language can help the most.

IMO having an open mind to language & culture can help the most.

Let him chose whichever language he prefers. Is it possible to consider doing the other language as a twilight subject either through the school or independantly?

He needs to chose. Let him have that freedom - he is growing into a young man and needs some independence.

DS did GCSE Mandarin a year early and got an A*. He is a linguist and chose Mandarin over German because it interested him more but regrets being unable to do both.

They will do what they are empowered to do at this age.

Is he thinking of carrying a language on to A-level or degree? In which case the work prospects and so on can be a factor, but also I would say the choice should depend mainly on which country's culture and history etc he is more interested in.

If he's only planning to do GCSE and then drop the language, it really doesn't matter - he should just choose which one he enjoys more, as a GCSE doesn't really get you up to any useful level for conversation or business - it might just about help if you are going on holiday to the country concerned (I did Russian o-level many aeons ago, and can just about decipher a few words on a menu).

Mandarin is certainly harder for a native English speaker to reach proficiency in than German, particularly in reading/writing, but it's not actually that hard to speak once you get the hang of the tones. (I have a German A-level & have lived/worked in Germany; also have part of a degree in Mandarin and have lived/studied in a Chinese-speaking country, so I am able to compare.)

In the world your son will grow up in, Mandarin will open doors for him that German won't. I have Mandarin-speaking friends throughout China who readily admit that they are mediocre at their high-profile jobs but the main reason they landed those positions is their linguistic ability. If he really loves German, he can learn that for fun. Mandarin will aid his career far better, should he wish it. I hope this helps.

getting around china you need some basic Mandarin.

large amounts of the population can't read, let alone speak English...

Germany much easier.

which does he enjoy? choose that one.

Great post, Sonnie, I agree with everything you mention.

In addition, Germans are often most appreciative of any effort made to speak their language, which is great for motivation. Everyone is impressed when they notice that someone is making an effort.

pusheed, you'll be delighted to learn that I've just had DD bring me up to speed on ten words of Spanish in preparation for tomorrow. I can read it, but pronounciation is hard!

I would agree that your ds should continue with whatever language he prefers more or is likely to get better marks at GSCE.

However, having worked in Germany for a number of years, I have to disagree with the statement above that "all Germans he will deal with with speak English and none will expect or be impressed by any ability to speak German."

That is simply not the case. Yes, most Germans have a basic knowlegde of English, but most small & medium sized companies' employees do not understand English well enough to conduct business in, so you will have a strong advantage if you can 'sell' to them in German.

Also, what subjects is your ds interested in? If it is in the area of Science & Technology then again German may be a more useful language for him (he may even want to study at Uni there?).

BIWI - Thanks for the link. DS has an aptitude for languages so we are keen to expose him to as many languages as possible purely for a self development viewpoint as opposed to a career enhancing thing.

Shanghaidiva - have you seen this site

You can draw the characters to find out what they mean - much easier!

Although the vast majority of Chinese will not speak English, those in the East who work in business will, and to a very good standard.
My son speaks both - fluent in German (he was born there) and has been learning mandarin for 3 years. Mandarin grammar is easy compared to German - no articles, no cases, limited tenses, but the tones can be tricky to master and learning characters can be tedious. I would continue with Mandarin at school and learn German with a private tutor as it is much easier to extend your vocabulary in German on your own once you have the basic building blocks. Whereas using a dictionary to find a character is..um.. challenging to say the least.

"I would go for mandarin as my tutor said something about in a few years time it will be the biggest language spoken"

Last year China's economy grew by 8%. Contrast that with the USA and Europe. Various experts have said that in about 50 years, if not sooner, China will replace the USA as the world's economic superpower. Hence the rush for US business graduates to learn the language.

I don't think that Chinese dominance is inevitable. I'm old enough to remember the above being said of Japan 30 years ago and people of my generation were urged to learn Japanese.

As another poster has said, foreigners invariably speak English better than we speak their language so there isn't the expectation that we speak their language. That is not to say we should be ignorant about their history or culture or not to have a basic understanding of their language. That is why I've taught myself how to say 'please', 'thank you' and 'you are welcome' in a number of languages. It always gets a smile out of the locals :)

I actually tried to conduct business with China more than 10 years ago. Finding somebody who could speak English was a struggle then. It sector.
When I later made some inquiries related purchasing a container load of wooden train sets, and arrange to shipping a freight container from Singapore to London (Quints crazy life) I had no English language issues. I guess from my extremely limited experience that it all depends on the type of sector, and how geared they are towards English speaking countries, from a commercial perspective.
I guess it has changed now. My friend worked as an English teacher there a few years, in a remote province.

"the vast majority of Chinese people won't actually speak English"

While it is true that your average factory work won't speak English that is not true for your average young office worker in a large company.

Its like in the West where you need GCSE English to get an office job. Over there the basic requirement is also English.

Its the same with the public facing jobs in the major cities. If you were to jump onto a London tour bus chances are your guide will only speak English. Your Chinese guide on the other hand will speak English with various levels of competence. It is a basic job requirement.

what a shame your son can't carry on with both languages...are you completely sure this is not possible?
I don't think absolute spoken fluency in a language is a prerequisite for using it professionaly - I studied German to A'level (old style) and have found it very useful as it has enabled me to do occasional translating work, although I wouldn't be able to speak it fluently at all.

Both languages are definitely very useful and worth continuing, especially if he enjoys and is good at both, why not let him continue with Mandarin at school (as I would imagine it's harder to find classes outside of school), and do German classes privately?

I would go for mandarin as my tutor said something about in a few years time it will be the biggest language spoken. Cannot remember stats probably wasting time not listening and posting on mumsnet !!

I wasn't suggesting that GCSE Manderin would be sufficient to conduct business.

In the future, it is likely that people will travel to China more and more for business as China grows. Even a smattering of a language goes a long way in making a trip just that bit easier, which is good for the speaker in the long run. Furthermore, knowledge of a language adds a dimension of cultural understanding that makes it easier to develop trust, which is essential in business.

Immersion later is also an option for those that have the time.

I am off to a Spanish speaking country tomorrow for the first time, and I am a bit embarassed that I won't even be able to say "thank you" in the taxi or ask politely for a glass of water or understand the sentence "here is your hotel". GCSE would help with that.

I have no idea whether to go for Mandarin or German, but I can totally understand what Pusheed is saying. (Even though I am a forriner )

My husband studied Norwegian full time for a year in Norway, we lived there for three years, he read the news, he watched tv, he talked to neighbours and friends. He said he felt his IQ drop by around 50% every time he had to speak Norwegian. It was a question of saying what he could say, not what he wanted to say. If the insurance company rang, or there was a sales call, he passed the phone to me. He speaks Polish and English, has some Russian and German, and now enough Norwegian to get by in every day situations.
I would not imagine that a GCSE on its own is going to be very helpful in conducting any business in a foreign language.

I find my rather basic German very useful for ordering gorgeous toys for DD from German websites

Now that's given me a brilliant idea. Next time they arrive on my doorstep I'll only speak to them in Mandarin

The next time there is a guy at your door trying to get you to switch gas/electricity suppliers ask him to explain the various tariffs and in what way will you be better off and by how much.

Imagine following that and at the same time parsing what he is saying through your Bull Shit Detector. Now imagine doing that in a foreign language. :)

I'm surprised by that, Pusheed, given that any language degree has you spend a year in the country of the language you are learning. Surely that must make you pretty fluent?

And business language may have jargon of its own, but it can't be that complicated to add to your overall vocabulary.

A school dad has a degree in Mandarin. He was saying that degree level linguistics skills will just about allow you to converse in a business situation.

A GCSE or A level in any language, German or Mandarin, will allow you to get around the respective country but that is about it.

So I wouldnt let the job thing drive your decision making.

If DC enjoys both equally then why not choose the one that he has the better chance of getting a good grade in.

Career wise, there is plenty of time for summer immersion courses in whatever.

Sorry, sea, but that's the classic British line - everyone else will speak English.

What's wrong with wanting to learn other languages? Countries like China will actually be very difficult to visit/do business with if you don't speak the language. And the vast majority of Chinese people won't actually speak English.