In what respect is Private better than state education?

So the parents who do have that choice should not exercise it because its not fair on those who can't?

So if you can afford to pay for a tutor for your child you shouldn't because other children in their state school can't afford one?

I didn't say we had to go private - I said that presented with those choices we would decide to go private, that's not the same thing at all.

"When state school provision is so poor in some areas it is difficult to hear people who have access to really really good state schools criticising parents whose choice is between 38% of children getting 5 gcses A-C or paying for private."

I think what I get angry about is this being presented as a choice. It is not a choice for most people. Nothing pushes my buttons more on threads like these than the "We had to go private" posts.

This topic really exercises me. It is absolutely profoundly unfair that people are required to pay or take out a huge mortgage or move to a certain county to get the education they want (which, being human nature, is the best for their kids).

There are a full 45% children who really hate the sequential linear (you learn this, then you add on to that block - then recall it all) structure of academic education (19% of who are unteachable), yet, if you let them loose to work with their hands they have the most incredible design concepts. I worked at a seed capital fund, and the concepts out there looking for money were just amazing. You remember the wind up radio guy? I would talk to people like that every single day, amazing.

Then the averagely average who get forgotten about. We need to have a revolution in this country, a revolt of the parents; to prise the fingers of those fekkin 60s activists OFF our schools, and completely restructure education. So that they are in 3 tiers, firmly answering to the market place (results) and with the money coming directly from the parents not the state (perhaps with vouchers) so those Frankfurt school left wing twits lose any say they have. Except for a couple of Chomskyists, they can all go into society-changing huddle together and not contaminate the rest of us, grrrrr. Private schools would fade, the 'grammar' stream would expand, and we would get on with it!~

BTW we do have another new Academy nearby which does get better a bit better results but recently one of the pupils was stabbed during the lunch hour so funnily enough that one doesn't appeal much.

seeker I went to the sort of state school that would make some parents on these boards shudder. I am now successful so I know you can be bright at any state school. What I also know is that at some (note - some not all) state schools you will not get the opportunity to fulfil your potential. We have bright shiny new academy near us where 38% of children get 5 gcses A-C (excluding equivalents). I cannot believe that only 38% of the cohort in that academy are capable of 5 gcses A-C so I really do question the quality of that school.

How are our children supposed to solve that?

When state school provision is so poor in some areas it is difficult to hear people who have access to really really good state schools criticising parents whose choice is between 38% of children getting 5 gcses A-C or paying for private.

Simply having a friend who's HT of a top grammar doesn't count as knowledge or experience happy. Why would it? On the things which count, these schools are far less different from your DS2's than the latter would care to admit.

Maybe some of us hope that our children will be part of the solution not part of the problem?

I don't think anyone denies that the top independents provide a fantastic education. And so they should- they have loads of money, are very selective and can quietly rusticate anyone liable to rock the boat.

But what those of us who support state education find difficult is the fact that most independent school "activists" (happy gardener usually being an honourable exception) seem to dismiss the idea that anyone can do well, or go to a Russell Group or even be clever at a state school, and that the only way to success is the independent route.

Yellowtip I'm afraid I don't "lack knowledge of top state grammar type ethos and achievement" we have a friend who's a head at one of the countries top boys grammars I think he would ultimately agree with me! They are good so's my DS1 excellent comp but still not in the same league!

seeker the reality is that independent and selective schools dominate entry to the top universities.
See this research
www.suttontrust.com/research/degree-of-success-university-chances-by-individual-school/

Yes, some state schools are wonderful but what do you do if you don't live by one?

amber I have to say that the reasons you articulate for being so impressed with this top indie whose Open Day you attended do seem somewhat shallow?

I'm afraid I think you lack knowledge of top state grammar type ethos and achievement though happy. And you do seem to assume that no-one currently within the state system can possibly have experience of Winchester etc. although I'm not sure quite why.

I've never said anything other than that the top independents give a fab education. And so they should. Plenty of resources and highly selective. But for some reason MNers with DC at top independents spend time strongly disputing the quality of provision at top states and,when they're not doing that, they bicker about which is best, Eton or Winchester, either of those and Harrow etc. Incredible really.

I couldn't agree more ...Happy Gardening, and that's after having attended a selective academic grammar school myself (though many moons ago) .

"Am I alone in thinking that there's a real ignorance about just how good some state schools are"
I feel the same just change the words state school for top independent. I too and I suspect probably uniquely am speaking from genuine experience of both the top boys boarding indie and the top performing comp I know how good state ed can be but I am under no illusions the indie is in a different league.

aah, 'twas the one with "happiness lessons"...em, need i say more? (now I've risked comments on how that school is not as premier league as Eton ...etc).

Point was, not that independents have cornered the market on good education - re-read beginning of my post, but what choices are there locally for me as an alternative (other than moving and tutoring heavily for a super selective state)...there are the local state comps and ONE grammar school heavily over subscribed...and underline, the OP asked what you pay for - it's not just about academics..so comparing A level results is not comparing apples to apples...but even so, on academics alone ...if only 7% of the population go private but roughly half of Oxbridge intake is from private than overall you'd have to say odds are better academically too ...wouldn't you or am I missing something?

And they all keep the troublemakers out of sight on Open Days, that's amateur stuff.

And asked the same question at her state school open day, dd said "Oxford".

Gosh was that Harrow? Oh well I can see why it's pulled in an Ivy League co-ordinator then :)

It's the state activists again .

'Arrogance has little if anything to do with and often indicates the opposite of brains'.

It's no use comparing Harrow and Bash Street Comprehensive..

amber it's completely invalid to compare top selective independent with non selective state comp.

Top selective independent with top selective state and non selective independnt with non selective comp. That's the only valid comparison, if one is to be made.

Top state schools do Harvard too. In fact Harvard are positively reaching out to top students at these schools including sponsoring prizes.

The two students I know who've applied specifically to Harvard are two of the least arrogant I know. Arrogance has little if anything and often the opposite of brains. Harvard comes to the student to interview, so it's all fairly easy.

Am I alone in thinking that there's a real ignorance about just how good some state schools are, and what they and their students do? It seems breathtaking that people go to Open Days at top independents and assume that they've cornered the market in everything that's good.

There are good and bad private schools (I believe some worse than good state schools), and yes, money does not always guarantee a good education

But it may at least afford your child the best opportunity for one at the the top of the range - for example,

I recently went to an open day at major public school with my DS.

Admittedly I'm sure they chose their most talented pupils to present their musical/sporting/academic achievements, but it was evident the extra curricular/ academic opportunities and facilities were amazing.

At the end, we had a tour from a random (polite) young boarder. I asked him where he was aiming for after leaving school and without hesitation or a hint of arrogance he said "Harvard".

He had already discussed it with someone the school had hired as its Ivy League co-ordinator with links/expertise/inside track to help stiudents eg SATS/building experiences for personal statements and were forging close links with US universities.

Of course there may be state schools like that, - but not any that are local to me.

Is it a level playing field compared with the local state comp. Of course not.

So is it worth paying 30+ k a year for compared to a free education at the average or even best local state school ?

Well, I'd say you'd be paying for lot more than pure academics (eg simply comparing A levels to local state grammar school, of which there is only one locally, vastly oversubscribed), as it's also about an ambitious peer group, sporting opportunities, acres of lovely facilities, breeding of the self confidence of "yes aim for Harvard" and presenting oneself well).

Finally, and something which seems to count more and more these days than raw talent (though I am sure many parents who turned up in Range Rovers who won't admit it openly except to their own ilk), it is also about mixing in a social milieu which will opportunities for DCs to build their future network.

nlondondad it's been pointed out numerous times in the past few days, on different threads. Just not this one.

bitwobbly my eldest five who have done their GCSE's at a grammar have 51A*s and 6As between them and four are at, or going to Oxford (don't know where the fifth will end up). Just to slightly counter your point (whilst agreeing that five proves not much more than two).