Super-selectives: how do we know if we're kidding ourselves?

Exactly Mumzy, so now children will have to be working at level 6 in year 5 just to be in with a chance. The whole process is ridiculous.

And with the recession lots more private school pupils will be sitting for gs placs in the next few years

The thing is you have to remember most academic preps. Teach their pupils a year in advance so a bright private pupil will be operating at least level 5 across the board. By. The. Time they. Sit the exam early In year 6 for gs places.

Local grammars here are supers selective. The secondary school info gives stats that suggest 5% or so of kids that sit the test get a place....but there are 2 girls grammars 2 boys and 1 co ed in the system all taking the same exam so the " number sitting the exam and wanting a particular school on the choices form " is impossible to work out.

For instance we put 3 grammars on our choices form in order of preference ( so presumably appears on the " number sitting the exam applying for school x 3 times?) so it's really impossible to work the stats out. Some people only put 1 grammar down.

Primary would give no guidance apart from an off the record " whisper behind the bike shed type thing" they were all at level 5 early in yr5 .

Btw for those worrying about " the pressure" super selective grammar kids feel- ll I can say is that my 3 don't show it - they are happy rounded kids with lots of extra curricular stuff as well as academic success. This has continued for dd1 at uni- she's doing really well and balancing the priorities of work with the demands of a " singing job" and a great social life. I don't know how this has happened but a lot is I'm sure that the school expects them to be busy people and succeed - the academic external prize winners are always in sports teams/ orchestras and shows as well for instance.

Mind you some of th kids at the schools are pressurised hugely by parents - imagine " you will sit that 11plus exam and we will relocate the family to allow you to attend" yup that happens because there is no catchment area ...

Ahh I see, thank you custard! Yes must be quite a strange experience going to school with that cohort bibbity...

the ghastly bit is this bit.....having been assured that one's child is of the required standard but still not knowing if they've pulled it out of the bag...(in terms of several 11+ passes being converted into an actual offer of a place!)

Not sure that SATS levels or projected levels at end of Year 5 easily translate/convert into 11+ passes.... they are quite distinct with the VR/NVR giving an extra dimension that particularly for State school children is entirely new and therefore a challenge.

I would hazard a guess that the ones who get into super-selectives tend to be the top 1/2/3/4 in a class but there again it depends on how clever the class is.... DS's class is known to be clever and four have passed 11+ exams thus far... but there are a couple of selective comps in the mix too that some could pass for....

I attended a parent's thing at a Sutton grammar and the Head said that if your son was looking like achieving two level 5s and a level 4 at the end of KS2 it was a "racing certainty" he'd get a place at a Sutton grammar.

It's really not as pressured as you'd think.

Oh dear God, I can't imagine the pressure children must feel under in this whole ghastly process. Not to mention what its like when you're actually at a school like Tiffin or Graveney.

Silly question but what is the definition of a super selective? Do you just mean grammar school?

I think we might all be in a better position to determine this after tomorrow's Offer Day...

I am not totally convinced that all the boys/girls who take the super-selective 11+ exams are super, super bright - only going on own experience of the cohort from DS's class who did them - sometimes it seems to be more about parents's aspirations than about the DCs actual abilities.

DS passed all three but we didn't know if he would or not (and it remains to be seen whether - he is one of these children who seems really lazy but actually does take it all in very easily. But I don't think that most people meeting him for the first time would think "wow that boy is bright".

I think some children naturally have the aptitude in the right areas and some children are very clever but it doesn't necessarily fit into the 11+ box. Always cite the case of an extraordinarily clever girl we know we would have been the one child all parents would have put money on to pass and get into grammar school - but she didn't and ended up at a good indie instead!

ohdear the reason for being a level 5 at the end of year 5 is that the 11+exams cover level 5 topics and not that they are requiring additional post level 5. However, these exams happen in the autumn term of year 6 therefore you need the level 5 standard at the end of year 5.

mumzy

"Having just gone through this process I would say if you wanted your dc in a super selective gs or a top indie then they need to be a grade 5 across the board ( English, maths, writing) by end of year 5 and working towards level 6 in all areas by the time they take 11+ in january of year 6. At gs which takes top 25% of pupils or less academic indie then level 4a across the board by end of year 5 and working towards level 5 in year 6. Dc from state schools do require tutoring for ss gs and top indies because the 11+ exam contains topics they would not have covered in class and they definitely don't get enough practice in essay writing and punctuation, grammar, spellings. Most state primaries will also not teach pupils beyond level 5 for maths and English as level 6 is seen as for secondary school despite the level being achievable for the top 5%. Academic private preps teach their pupils 1 year ahead of their state school counterparts and do loads more practise so a child from there will be working towards level 6 by the time they take11+."

I would be surprised, and there would be an outcry (or should be one), if any state school set an admissions test that requires knowledge of maths or English which is above national curriculum level 5. Clearly, indies can do what they like - but surely not the States (superselective or not). Of course, a DC operating at level 6 will be more proficient at the level 5 stuff and quicker at it and absolutely take your point that they would be at an advantage - but not sure its a question of not knowing advanced trigonometry or whatever would be covered in level 6.

"I don't think you can tutor a child beyond their capacity." - definitely agree with this.

If your child is level 4a/b at the start of yr5 got a buy the Bond books which give 11+ style questions.

Then make sure they take some practive exam papers for technique and working at the correct speed. After that they should have a good chance of passing because by the time they stary yr6, they should be working at level 5 and be up to speed with the types of questions (verbal/non verbal etc) that they will have to answer.

We live very near Tiffin and lots of children take it from our state primary with a "may as well have a go" mentality - and from what I've seen over the years, the (very few - about 2 per year) children who get in are either a) staggeringly bright (not sure of levels but easily level 5 in yr 5, probably before) or b) pretty bright but have had tutoring for Tiffin for years and years (year 2 in some cases, summer courses etc). We gave it a go with DS 1 - he got into the local academic private school with ease but was half-way down in the Tiffin results - nowhere remotely close to a place (although to be fair he didn't do the Tiffin-specific tutoring). With DS2 I didn't bother!

Lynli if your DS was level 5 across the board in Y3 why on earth waste 4 hours a week of his life on tutoring stuff and money as well? Clearly he's going to walk it, probably could have done in Y4.

Interestingly I felt the 11+ exams felt similar to O levels in that they are designed to fail you rather than to pass you which is logical as selective schools only have a finite number of places. From looking at previous past 11+ papers there were definitely some trick questions to sort out the sheep from the goats. To those that are against tutoring I would say I wouldn't have passed O levels without practising past papers, having timed mock exams and teachers taking us through some of the trickier questions all of which we did with ds when he sat 11+.

DS got in from State primary with just doing practice papers at home (we did more practice than with DD though, as learned from that). He had to do Maths & Eng papers as well as the reasoning, but DD's exam was JUST 2 reasoning papers, so hard to compare them really. DD would have had more luck if she could have shown her English & Essay skills.

DS was level 5 across the board in year 3. He was tutored for an hour a week and the tutor set 3 hours homework. It was his tutors asessment that convinced us he had a realistic chance for his first choice grammar. He sat three mocks and achieved a score that would have gained him entry in any previous year.

I am awaiting offers day.

I am surprised that many parents have put their DC forward without having any idea of the levels needed or if their DC can achieve them. They all seem to be against tutoring at any cost.

Having just gone through this process I would say if you wanted your dc in a super selective gs or a top indie then they need to be a grade 5 across the board ( English, maths, writing) by end of year 5 and working towards level 6 in all areas by the time they take 11+ in january of year 6. At gs which takes top 25% of pupils or less academic indie then level 4a across the board by end of year 5 and working towards level 5 in year 6. Dc from state schools do require tutoring for ss gs and top indies because the 11+ exam contains topics they would not have covered in class and they definitely don't get enough practice in essay writing and punctuation, grammar, spellings. Most state primaries will also not teach pupils beyond level 5 for maths and English as level 6 is seen as for secondary school despite the level being achievable for the top 5%. Academic private preps teach their pupils 1 year ahead of their state school counterparts and do loads more practise so a child from there will be working towards level 6 by the time they take11+. I don't think you can tutor a child beyond their capacity. When we were tutoring ds he could do work a year ahead of his actual age but not 2 years ahead as his brain has to go through further development for that to happen. Once we identified he could pass 11+ Tutoring for us meant teaching him additional stuff he needed for the exam, practising exam questions regularly, teaching and practising exam technique. Throughout the whole 6 month process he still did his after school activities, had lots of free time and it was pretty relaxed. However I know another family who are desperate for their ds to get a scholarship at the local indie and he does extra work at lunchtime, weekends and after school on top of which he also has to practise 2 instruments. IMO that's far to much.

Our Primary was no help but when DD didn't make it her teachers were very surprised (She was solid level 5a's in year 5). However, she could never get her head around the NVR papers enough to do the questions quickly enough. I often wonder if I had got her tutored she would have got in, but I am so glad I didn't as she had a fantastic time at her secondary.

I'd vote to get rid of grammars and my DDs both went to a superselective.