Super-selectives: how do we know if we're kidding ourselves?

Well- the foundation have given a reasonable amount of notice, I think. (though am v thankful I don't have a Y5 child atm! ... and I know 1 prep head is going in July too... spooky co-incidence?)

Of course CH demand higher pass mark than FW and H/A, so I am assuming they will give applicants an indication of which school they are likely to gain a place at. How awful if your only choice was CH, but mark only good enough for FW, so get nothing?

Swanker that's really interesting that you'll only be able to put one grammar down. Being given, as understand it , your mark in the test and last years " mark above which places were allocated" is sort of helpful but isn't the " well she's above the pass mark so she's in" as many will believe it is.

My 3 sat for BV/ SCGS ( and ds almost sat for HG as well we were so worried!)- the poor kids pent most of year 6 doing exams - but to their credit coped fine and in a way have been able to look back and say " we coped with that " and gain confidence from it.

Not sure if the independents will change exam dates given the september 11+ but it's given the prep schools a huge headache I understand!

"hard on the kids who feel they've failed AND wasted huge amounts of time and effort on achieving this AND feel guilty for costing their parents that much"

How on earth can spending time with your child ever be a waste ?
If our children don't pass they have at least had an hour a week with dad in starbucks, the car journey there and back having a laugh and an hour a week with the tutor practicing maths and english, that's money well spent what ever the outcome if you ask me.
Any parent that makes them feel guilty is a monster and the 11+ is probably the least of that child's worries.

My ds attends a local primary school. He passed the 11 plus exams to a grammar school and a couple of public schools. He had no private tutors or hours and hours of practice either. He loves reading so I bought him many books(picked the lists from the top schools websites) and I bought him CGP books that he worked through them at his own pace covering all the topics that they don't cover at his school. No stress... helped as well. A couple of dc at his school were tutored for a couple of year before the exam date but didn't pass!

theas from next year, one will no longer be able to put 3 choices of GS on preference form, 1 only.
The 5 schools are having entrance tests in September and giving results prior to preferences for Secondary School being submitted, effectively telling applicants which GS they'd have a chance of getting into.

Not sure if the other 3 GS in the north of the authority will fall into line with this (SGS likely, and BV i'd have thought, HG has entirely different tests I understand).

No idea if fee-paying schools will adapt to this timetable too, and of course the 5 are academies now...

I think I was being a bit harsh tBQH. The problem is that as a parent you don't know whether you are deluded about your children's ability or not. We know DS was in the top group all through primary school (and still is) but then it depends on how clever the cohort at your DCs' school is. We didn't know if he would pass any/all of the 11+ exams. Once he had passed one, then two it was beginning to look like he had the necessary skill set and ability. But if all the exams are sandwiched into September/early October it's going to be all or nothing for most parents.

The problem is that from DS's classmates experience I would say that entering them for the exams gives the DCs expectations of their own and the feeling of entitlement to a grammar school place. There have been a lot of tears this week when children who have done the grammar school exams but not passed have 'only' got their fall-back, safety net school options and feel short-changed.... Is that fair on them?

It's a very difficult one......

XXXXX

K

Yes I realise that actually passing at random is vanishingly unlikely given 100?200? questions and a 1/5 chance of guessing each, but it probably does influence some over optimistic parents to give it a shot - realistically luck might carry you up 1%.

I guess most parents try to focus on their children's strengths rather than weaknesses, and that's normally a good thing - but not necessarily if it leads to years of coaching in pointless NVR training.

I personally feel, but only from our limited experience, that a lot of parents are a bit deluded about their children's abilities. Not quite sure why. But maybe the whole thread given to Gifted and Talented on this site says it all??? In DS's class about 12 children in all probably took at least one grammar school exam and apart from the four who passed at least one, would say that there was probably one very near miss (who is usually on the same level as DS at school) who only missed out on at least two passes by about 3 or 4 points. Most of the others were not really bright enough. It's harsh but true.

That's why when people go on about some of the grammar schools being superselective I do wonder really how competitive they really are. If about one third of the children are not really of the right level then are they any more competitive than in other areas?

By the way the laws of statistics say that it's highly unlikely that a child would guess every question correctly by fluke. That just doesn't happen.

What would be interesting to see is how many of the children have passed all the exams they've taken rather than just one? You would assume they are the 'core' clever ones or ones with a certain ability. I would say that one pass is more likely to be a 'fluke' wouldn't you?

I also think that there is far too much spin around having tutors. I think there is a certain kudos (money talks) about being able to say your DCs have a tutor. But it seems to me that most educated parents are just as capable of giving their children the correct tutoring if not more so...

Some of the parents at school look at me as if we are alien beings because we have tutored our own child. It's a type of 'wow' how did you do it? It's not difficult if you have a clever child to start with! They just need guidance not intensive force-feeding of information

sorry rant over!

Congrats gazza.

We still haven't answered the question in the OP though. Given that a "pass" doesn't guarantee you a place, far from it, why do so many children take the test who won't even pass? Is it that they are failing by very narrow margins, are the parents deluded or conned by tutors, or do they just think it's worth a pop and on a multiple choice test they might get every question right by fluke?

Agree that speed is important - working at great speed isn't really required for SATs and not in itself a sign of intelligence, I don't think, as speed of reading does not necessarily = speed of thought, as visual things like eye tracking ability can affect this too. Nevetheless, it is true that being able to read at speed will make life easier at a grammar school, so maybe it is reasonable to test this skill here too.

My experience has been completely different to cleek's - of my dd's group of 5 friends applying for grammar, the only two who got in were those who did not have private tutoring but did have supportive parents who home-tutored (fairly lightly).

No worries and glad that can be of some use. Happy to help if you have any more queries...

Yes, DS's year parents were fine but in the year below there's a lot of covert operations. You get to realise who the real Tiger Parents are!

Good luck!

Thanks for the post Gazz. It's so helpful for us who will be in your shoes next year...In Sept already! Parents are so secretive and defensive in DS primary, I really really appreciate you sharing all this.

Right, just checking in again to give my post 1st March Offers Day view of things.

DS got third choice grammar school (but high on waiting list for second choice one too). We did practice papers at home and filled in gaps with VR/NVR but we didn't use an external tutor. We spent about 3-6 months practising at a low-level and then upped the game during summer hols before Year 6 (he would do a NVR or VR and maths or literacy paper most days except when we were on holiday and away from home - they need a break!).

At the end of Year 5 he was a 5b in maths and 4a/5c in literacy. Classmates (one or two) who were at the same SATS levels haven't passed any of the 11+ exams so SATS results alone shouldn't make you complacent.

I cannot really explain what it is that makes one child pass and another one fail (even if they both have supportive parents and are generally bright buttons) but it certainly would seem that whilst SATS projections might give you a general idea of whether your child is of the required standard or not, they are no guarantee.

The whole thing is not an exact science at all. DS is quite lazy and he was at times a most unwilling pupil and we did really wonder whether he had the aptitude and/or desire to do well. But he passed all three 11+ exams and has the offer of at least one place. One of his classmates has never been higher than the middle table for numeracy/literacy (but had a tutor for thee years) and yet they too passed and has a grammar school offer.

Who can say but it would appear to be as much to do with attitude to doing exams and speed as inherent intelligence. DS is fast and finished just about all of his papers over the five selective exams he took (whereas the level-pegging classmate who failed by a matter of 4 or 5 points didn't finish most of his). And perhaps more importantly he is not at all nervy about exams - he enjoys the challenge!

Hope that helps!

I agree with sue52. A few days ago I spoke with someone who got two children into grammar schools. She sent all her children to private school from nursery to year 6 plus paying for extra coaching outside school hours. Just to make sure that they will get in gs. When I heard that my heart nearly jumped out. I was feeling very humble and naive as well.

Lynli if my dcs at level 5 in yr 3 I would just put my feet up. Why bother anymore coaching?

At my DD's selective school, it is rare to find a child who hasn't had extra tuition at a price to pass the 11plus. It is also as rare to find a child from a low income family. These things are not unrelated.

I believe that less selective schools have a better standard of teaching and create a better atmosphere for learning.

I think some people push their kids to apply even though not in the top few because, as you say, they want to give it a go, nothing to lose, and, sadly, many believe the dross on here that money can buy you in so imagine if they spend a fortune on tutoring then theur dc will be guaranteed a place - hard on the kids who feel they've failed AND wasted huge amounts of time and effort on achieving this AND feel guilty for costing their parents that much.

Though there are many kids who are borderline - at each mark away from the score that gets in there may be 20 or 30 children with that score, so many near misses - they were probably right to give it a go, but it all depends on their performance on the day, obviously. Hence some get into one grammar but not another.

Others are naturally bright but come from v uneducated homes so are not helped or encouraged adequately - those are the saddest.

If your dc is one of the top 2 or 3 in their class, consistently, then they are not kidding themselves. You know if your child is quite good or the brightest/one of the brightest.

I suspect you were 'done' for 25K, Heswall, as there is nothing in the 11+ exam that can't be done by a child at a state school - the only difference is the tests cover year 6 maths, but are sat at the start of year 6, hence the child will need to have covered all the year 6 maths topics, which many/most will not yet have done. However, year 6 maths isn't very dificult and any normally bright parent can cover that quite adequately with their dc, or pay a tutor to do so if rhey really are not capable/too busy.

I suppose the tests are biased in favour of those who come from nice middle-class homes so have access to lots of books etc.

There were questions on the practice papers sent out by the local authority that the children had never seen. They may well be on the NC but it hadn't been taught.

@Heswell state schools do not teach VR. If a grammar school sets maths and English papers though they will be based on the national curriculum and the state schools do teach that.

If the ability wasn't there in the first place she would never have passed the exam no matter what I paid.
Lots of parents pay tutors to no avail, the problem is one with the state schools they do not teach the questions on the blooming papers, especially the maths papers.

@sue it's not the 11+ that's unfair. It's that the system allows money to trump ability or merit. That is what is unfair.

A good example of the unfairness of the 11 plus Heswell.

This is why I paid for prep between years 3 and 6 for my daughter and it worked.
If you are in a grammar school area it's the best £25,000 you'll ever spend.