To Pay Or Not To Pay?

Agree with Agapanthii . You have to visit both the local comp and independent school to get a feel for which is best for your DC, don't discount either until you have seen them. Regarding diversity of pupils, I have found that the independent schools near to me have a wide mix of children - some from very wealthy families, some from families where one parent works just to pay the fees, with the majority somewhere inbetween. This will of course depend on which independent schools you are looking at - some are more elitist than others !

Do you know exactly where you're moving to?

Agree with everyone else, you have to weigh up the local alternatives - I know people who've chosen their local comp over v presitigious private secondaries and vice versa and this is in London, it's such a personal decision.

My advice would be to look at both private and comps once you know where you will be living. There may be some fantastic comps.

For us we decided to go down the private route. There were 3 main reasons that swayed us (and both primaries in our village are rated outstanding by OFSTED). 1. Teacher/student ratios (very low so we knew the teachers wouldn't have to struggle with 30 children in every year) 2. the teachers at our prep school build in at least 2 additional challenges to every lesson so that if students finish early there are additional challenges that build on the lesson and keep the students engaged while the others work on the base challenge 3. QC factor. The Quiet Confidence. We found the the children at the school were all very polite, confident but not in a pushy manner, and settled into a variety of social situations with ease.

If you're prepared to go private, presumably you're happy with the idea of a grammar school? I live in Kent, and looking at the latest league tables, the local public schools all did worse than the grammars - and these are not super-selective grammar schools.

"You should consider that it may not be as easy as you think to move a child from state secondary to private."
Having done the move both ways, our experience was the opposite. 13+ is slightly more challenging at the very top, but exposure to Latin, Greek and French for a couple of years beforehand will work if your child is up to it. 11+ and 16+ moves are fine without preparation. If your child will struggle, you can choose to compound their misery by intensive tutoring. They can then spend another five to seven years re-learning where they already knew they were academically, rather than finding their own place in the world.
Top independents compete for good pupils, but state schools have rules and are much more open to challenge, so there is only so far they can bend after they have interviewed. Yes, top state schools interview too, either officially at 16+ or unofficially by phone. But they also follow rules, and I have never met any that have considered otherwise (or we'd have reservations about them), but they are immensely creative. Moving to a top comp outside of the 11+ process was much more difficult than moving to a top public school. Grammars are slightly easier because of their smaller constituency.

"In my opinion children are better behaved at private schools for a number of reasons, poor behaviour isn't tolerated, there are sanctions, and ultimately children removed from the school. Many selective schools have children who are self motivated and want to learn so are less inclined to play up (commented by my mother who was a teacher in both sectors)."
hahahaha
It's almost impossible to expel a handful of students paying £30k pa each. I have seen immediate expulsions in a comp while a public school may take months to train the students and their parents to keep under the radar while they complete their time there. Selective schools have children with parents who know the leeway several lots of £30k will buy. It seems that a good state school only considers the merit of the pupil's behaviour, while independents have to look elsewhere too (commented by one who has seen this in both sectors).
It's sometimes easy to forget that your child will almost find it impossible to ignore how they've been brought up. They will lean towards others who are similar, but hopefully also be open to those who are different.

Looking around a public school will tell you as much as browsing down Beauchamp Place. As for facilities, no child will use even half of them. Ask yourself what yours would use, and whether the school is the best provider. In the south-east, most good state schools have had major building works before the recession struck.

If top comps selected, and removed half to three-quarters of their students, you'd have to ask yourself what outcomes you're paying for. Especially since the state pays them less than half an independent's fees for each pupil. Perhaps all those fee remissions for their staff?

That said, when mine were facing these choices, it was very hard to know what was the right thing to do. Happily my youngest, as quiet and dangerously sensitive as the others, is loving their comp, has many friends, and enjoys a voluntary 'prep and activities' schedule as varied and unusual as any we know. Interestingly several friends at the comp have older Etonian DBs too, and you can't tell which school they attend. So we're not the only ones who only visit Beauchamp Place occasionally for our shopping.

If re-location were an option, we might have positioned ourselves to cover all bases. You have that lucky choice.

`if you have reservations about independent schools and feel strongly about your dcs to go to school with pupils from a variety of cultures, classes, religions and backgrounds then I would send them to state school.
Having said that, I think that ability to get on with different sorts of people is more down to personality than schooling. Also, like colleger I have never met two Etonians who are the same.

"You should consider that it may not be as easy as you think to move a child from state secondary to private. It would be sensible to see what the admissions are like for your "chosen" private school."
Also many of what you describe as "those ridiculously posh schools" take boys in particular at 13 and again the state wont prepare you for their entrance tests in particular MFL.

Regarding behavior being better at independent schools - they often don't have any qualms about getting rid of persistently badly behaved pupils, unlike state schools which can only exclude pupils in extreme circumstances. Basically, you are paying to be there, and if you don't measure up they don't need to keep you.

Bramshott-you must go, you can't make a proper decision unless you see the difference. Loads of our friends quietly think we are mad to send our two independent when they passed for grammar. But they never looked at the independent schools.

Yes soupy is right - and bear in mind that you will need to sort out 11 plus preparation yourself as school won't do it for you. Be realistic about your child's abilities (and yours to make sure the work is done!). But it is very possible.

You say that you "don't want to raise DS in a certain way"..."as in putting pressure on him to get certain grades" I acknowledge your talking about entrance onto Eton but if as a general ethos on life you don't want to put pressure on your DC's then you need to be very careful in the independent sector. Nearly all senior schools are going to out pressure on your DC's to get results the truly unselective who are truly not interested in exam results are few and far between if they exist all at and if your considering "one of those ridiculously posh schools" of this world then they will certainly be putting pressure on their children to achieve top grades at GCSE/IGCSE/A level/Pre U. Remember the bottom line is that most parents are paying for better exam results than Johnny would have got the local comp and the schools know this and cater for it.

You should consider that it may not be as easy as you think to move a child from state secondary to private. It would be sensible to see what the admissions are like for your "chosen" private school.

I think it's an interesting conundrum - in some ways I'm struggling with the same sort of thing. We could afford private secondary for the DDs, but both DH and I went to a state school, both did well, and really like the social inclusiveness of the comprehensive system. But then I have doubts (DH less I think) and wonder if we'll regret not giving the DDs this change, when we can afford it.

I think we'll start them off at the local comprehensive, reassured by the knowledge that if it doesnt' work out, there are other options. And yes, I realise how enormously lucky we are to be in that situation. But a part of me also wants to go and look at the local private school when we look at schools for DD1 next year, only another part doesn't because I'm too scared I'll really like it . . . . !

I think that you have to find the right school for the child. A sporty child will not thrive at an academic school that pays lip service to sport, and vice versa. Look at all the options without taking into account private /state and choose the school that suits your child best.

i was educated for secondary at a private school and was often aware that this opened doors for me. I may have done equally well at a state school but we will never know. I always thought that we would consider private for dd at secondary. It wasn't an option for primary. But when we realised our state options that were dire it became obvious that private was the only option to ensure a decent standard of education.

My nieces and nephew were all educated in the state system, 2 of them attended a very good state school but both left at 16 for a variety of reasons, one is now in a job where he is very unhappy. I have another niece who attended a reasonable state school and her whole class failed their Art exam.

When we went looking at private schools for dd she immediately fell in love with one of them and to be honest we were quite impressed too. Not by the facilities and the resources, but by the attitude of the staff and the other pupils. We knew that dd would be happy there. If we had got that in a state school then she could have gone there.

In my opinion children are better behaved at private schools for a number of reasons, poor behaviour isn't tolerated, there are sanctions, and ultimately children removed from the school. Many selective schools have children who are self motivated and want to learn so are less inclined to play up (commented by my mother who was a teacher in both sectors).

Some parents comfortable with comprehensive schooling and contemplating relocation might find themselves living next to schools like the Camden School for Girls, Dame Alice Owen, the Watford Grammars, etc. Mixing with different types of families often seems to make young people gravitate towards their own faster. They don't tend to get 'infected', more that their life choices appear sooner, IYSWIM.

Going independent is fine if kids are the sort that schools compete over. If they are like most of us and things don't work out, there is often no acceptable state option on which to rely. Money is for spending, provided it's there, so that isn't really the prime factor, if you are having to make choices over where to live anyway.

My observation is that parents choosing location based on junior school just have a bigger problem later, when it matters more, if location matters at all.

I think you need to look at all the schools and you will probably get a gut feeling. We sent ours state until eleven hoping (among lots of other reasons) that that would give them an understanding of their place in society and how lucky they now are to be at their lovely independent school with its listed buildings and acres of fields etc.

If you mooch about MN and read some of the many, many threads about this huge decision, you'll find that a great many people had no desire at all to use private education UNTIL they saw very closely what was on offer to them in their immediate local vicinity.

I was in a similar position to you - came from a w/c background, grew up on a council estate, went to a comp in a socially deprived area of the UK, married a posh boy who went to boarding school. Didn't occur to me that I might want to send my child private UNTIL I headed to the local lovely primary, which everyone raved about in our area of zone 2 , London. Found it truly was lovely and I would have happily sent my kids there. But we didn't get a place. What we did get offered was not comparable. It was heartbreaking and we were dragged (kicking and screaming) down the private route instead. Now we are there, we are very happy with our choice. It's working well for our dc.

So wait and see what is actually available to you at your new address, in both the state and private sectors and then decide.

Our DC are in a quite famous school, but regular visits to my home town to visit friends and family ensure they know there is a very diverse population out there. That bit is up to YOU, you know.

I think I've got foot in mouth syndrome too! I really didn't mean to imply that you had been offensive (I don't think you have been), and I meant only to point out that using stereotypes for school communities isn't really helpful.

As you DCs are KS2 age, I'd look for an adequate primary (probably state) for them to go to in the immediate aftermath of your move. Then concentrate your search on the right secondary - again looking at all options from both sectors.

We have one DS at a top boys independent boarding school one at the countys top performing state. When independent is at its best and your DC is happy then it can't be beaten. The facilities the extra curricular activities the breadth of the lessons the pastoral care the attitude of the staff to you and your DC's the camaraderie between the children in a boarding house the cultural opportunities I could go on. My DS 2 loves it. But there are also good state schools with committed teachers, access to not bad facilities lunch time after school clubs and even in non selective comps good results. My DS1 loves it for him there was no better local independent school that could compare with the state option.

A lot depends on the individual school

Just imagine how offensive this threadwould be if you had assumed that all state schools were alike and you had to raise your DCs in a particular way in order for them to "fit in" with your stereotypes of what sort of people went there. Drop the cliches.

Go and look at all the schools that may be possibles, regardless of which sector they belong to. Have an open mind on you visits, then choose the ones which you think will best suit your DCs. It's no different from any parent choosing a school - ignore myths, do your homework about what is really on offer think of your DCs. That you are rich enough to have a wider choice than most doesn't alter the essentials.

My ds was in an ofsted outstanding state primary in a class with 30 other kids. He had always been in the top set as he is very able. We always had the problem of him not being challenged enough. The typical trend was 1st term, he'll have the teacher's attention and be challenged but by 2nd term, he'd be left to coast. Id always had the dilemma of should he go private, should he stay in state?

Eventually, his year 3 teacher put things into perspective for me. She quite honestly admitted he's quite intelligent and she tries to challenge him but that I have to appreciate she has 30 other kids to support as well. And that her priority unfortunately has to go to the children that are lagging behind in order to bring them up to scratch.

It made sense really, it won't do well for league tables if 4 children attain level 6, and 20 kids level 3, they'd rather have all kids on level 5, iyswim.

At that point, we made the decision to go private, where there are smaller sizes, and he can get better attention.

So it really depends on what you really want and the motive behind it. I couldn't justify spending all that money initially because my motive was really just to keep up with the joneses! But now, I know it's the best thing for my child and it makes it all worth it.

We sent our dd to an outstanding comp in London for a couple of years. The social intake was broad but there was a complete stand off between the middle class girls and the chavvy girls. The latter were also disruptive, intimidating and didn't want to be there. 50% of every lesson was spent settling them and there were no consequences for unacceptable behaviour.

Benefits of independent: better behaved children, firm boundaries, all subjects taught by subject specialists, better communication, better enrichment activities, broader and more academic curriculum, more accessible staff, better pastoral care, better facilities, etc. etc.

You can't mould a child into an Etonian. They're an Etonian if they go to Eton and they aren't one if they don't go. I've also never met two Etonians that are the same.

I think your plan should be to send them to the state school and if it turns out to be appalling then you won't see paying school fees as being wasteful but being necessary. If your kids are happy at the state school then there is no need to spend any money on fees. All I would say though is that e South is more polarised than up North when it comes to education. There are more grammars and highly selective independent schools that cream off the top pupils so the comprehensives in some areas are not truly comprehensive. In other areas, the comps are not socially diverse and are either filled with mainly middle-class kids or mainly disadvantaged kids.

I've never really understood the argument for wanting kids to be in a socially diverse school. What has that got to do with a good education or how kids turn out. Most end up being friends within their own social class eventually anyway.