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Original poster

What does "it's a liberal school" mean to you?

59 replies

happygardening · 04/02/2012 18:04

Just that curious really by exactly what people mean by the term liberal school.
Is it no uniform and calling teachers by their first name or is there more to it than that. I take it it's not mixed dorms and sex on the croquet lawn.

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Original poster
happygardening · 10/02/2012 17:57

I didn't say a boy would be excited by exams but should be excited by the depth and breadth of the curriculum in the subjects hes choosen to study. You may see A levels/pre u as a means to an end but I see that as part of learning and understanding about a subjects that hopefully one feels passionate about. With your view then why isn't university a means to an end as well why does it stop at A level particularly if you carry on studying one of your A levels at under graduate level? Of course exams are not enjoyable although I personally found the intense level of study required of my degree subject for my exams at uni very enjoyable. Also at least with the Pre U it's one group of exams at the end of a two year course rather than AS exams and then retake AS exams and then A level exams. Leaving plenty of opportunities for those who want it to follow their "passion!"

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MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 10/02/2012 17:39

TheOrignalSteamingNit - Agree. Libertarian = the Big Society and personal sovereignty, liberal = the state doing what you want to be free to choose not to do.

MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 10/02/2012 17:34

HappyGardening - ha! At the idea of a boy being excited by his school exams. Really? Grin

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 10/02/2012 16:19

The stuff about mixed dorms is libertarian rather than liberal, I guess. Cf also bedales and summer hill. It seems like you mean liberal as in liberal humanism here?

Original poster
happygardening · 10/02/2012 14:03

MrsJ the Pre u and its merits has been widely commented on by MNetters teachers the press and by those who take it. It is generally considered a more intellectually stimulating exam ( not just by teachers at Winchester) there is nothing more exciting that being truely intellectually challenged.
Winchster is about intellectually challenging its boys but also allowing for a boy to pursue his passion. This week my DS watched a thought provoking and beautifully acted play, played the sport he's passionate about away at another school, went to the art dept in his spare time enabling him to pursue another passion, participated in three other sports and last weekend in an enourmous snow ball fight with the rest of his house. And these are only he things I know about. I see no evidence of only being allowed to study. In fact I know from expereince he did far more this week and all the other weeks he's been thee than others of his age did at their boarding schools.
I do not send my DS to school to become a government minster or the equivilant I send him to school to experience as many things as he can and also to love learning for the sake of it and in my experience as a recent mature student I found that when one is truely intellectually stimulated then learning moved from being the task I found at school to a life enhancing and changing experience I personally couldnt get enough of it I would have cheerfully sat in lectures all day every day. That is what I know my son will find at Winchester. I dont know if that's a liberal education but for me and my DS it's a top quality education.

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MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 10/02/2012 10:55

A liberal education is one that's driven by the pupil's individual interests, not by the interests of the school and its reputation. Real success in life lies in finding your thing and being helped to pursue it and learning about it and yourself in the process. So Eton do what's required with all the exams nonsense (they don't make their boys overextend themselves) to tick the boxes and get to where it is you want to go (an excellent uni normally) but, crucially, leave sufficient time left over to pursue the boy's thing with a passion. So you get to write a play, direct a play, conduct, debate, paint or whatever the 'thing' is. They are relaxed about the outliers at GCSE and A level (plenty of mediocre grades) because that hasn't been the focus of the education of that particular boy.

Contrast that with Win Coll who are obsessed with their academic reputation. They make their boys sit the Pre U which makes attaining an A* level at A level look easy. Most A levels are a means an end, and not studied for pleasure (sometimes this happens of course). But making the prescriptive part of education more difficult than it needs to be (the Pre U) seems to me to be the opposite of a liberal education. And perhaps it explains why Wykehamists so often end up in life being the bridesmaid and so seldom the bride? Or so often the PPS and so seldom the Govt Minister? Grin

School/an education is about so much more than scoring high grades innit.

genug · 10/02/2012 10:55

Does the idea of a liberal education not go back considerably further than Arnold? Sure, the curricula have to continue to develop, but why would it be old hat or elitist? Neither is it restricted to the independent sector. More I would say to good schools across the world.

cheltenmum · 10/02/2012 08:04

Of course Arnold's notion may and should be challenged in a changed social and political environment and era. That doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong . I've always taught in the state sytem and do not feel the aspiration is ecxlusive to the independent sector. I would be delighted to dicuss its modern meaning and relevance with sixth formers in any sector but I don't feel the notion is so old hat as to be without merit. Ilike it.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 09/02/2012 21:51

Yeah liberalism is great, love it, let's liberally include... Anyone whose parents can pay!

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 09/02/2012 21:50

But isn't the idea of 'the best that has been thought and said' quite old hat and small c conservative and elitist? Any decent university course in any academic subject would challenge Arnold's notion on that.

Original poster
happygardening · 09/02/2012 21:47

I don?t accept that liberalness and inclusiveness necessary have to go together. If we accept volumnia's definition then you?re talking about an ethos that pervades regardless of whether your selective or not. Also nearly every independent school is selective to a certain degree so that would mean the hardly any are liberal in ethos.

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lyonheart · 09/02/2012 19:14

I don't think a school like Eton or Win Coll could be described as liberal as I feel a main factor of a liberal school is inclusiveness. IMO that rules out highly selective boys only schools.

Original poster
happygardening · 09/02/2012 09:17

volumnia thank you you have managed to out express my feelings in a way that I seemed unable to do.
I applaud you definition:
"a full cultural education which allows pupils access to the 'best that has been thought and said" and encourages pupils to take control of their own intellectual journeys."
I have become increasingly unconvinced that just because there's no uniform, and children are allowed to die there hair green or even call teachers by their first names that its means its a liberal school. If this is the true definition of a liberal school then I suspect many labelled as liberal are indeed failing to comprehensively to make the grade but that schools like Winchester and a few others which may appear to outsiders not to be liberal are the front runners when looking for a liberal school.

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volumnia · 09/02/2012 08:28

I think 'liberal' can be interpreted 2 ways

Surely what Winchester and other acknowledged excellent schools actually offer is a "liberal education" in the truest and best sense - a full cultural education which allows pupils access to the 'best that has been thought and said" and encourages pupils to take control of their own intellectual journeys. This is not the same 'liberal' that seems to be suggested in some of these commnets, where the writer means relatively unstructured and informal.

Original poster
happygardening · 09/02/2012 08:15

According to my dictionary Oxford Concise liberal has 6 meaning not all are completely applicable but include open minded, not strict, general broadening of the mind, favouring individual liberty.
One would hope all schools have a degree of liberality at least I would.

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yotty · 08/02/2012 22:08

I think 'liberal' can be interpreted 2 ways. Firstly, the anything goes, no uniform and calling teachers by their first names. Or secondly, my understanding of what WinColl mean by 'liberal' which is being a bit maverick when it comes to being told what the curriculum should be by the government, and encouraging the pupils to have open discussions in the classroom as opposed the being slaves to league tables and teaching to the test. Let's hope I am not disappointed if DS gets a place!

MadDash · 08/02/2012 20:02

The truth is very few people would go to a completely 'liberal' school, whereas a school with liberal features would be very popular.

I just don?t see bread making and outdoor activities as liberal because it all part of a structured day
Would you want your DC at a school that didn't have a structured day?

I believe that schools that operate through trust between all members of the school community is a pretty liberal ethos. As is non uniform and calling teachers by first names, but these features stem from the trust that they won't be abused.

With education being a lot more, dare I say, important (as in being a gateway to a good future)*nowadays, I don't think many parents would send exam aged children to a school like Summerhill, and that's why there are so few.

However that is just my opinion. Trust makes a school liberal for me.

*I only say this as DH left school with 1 A level and still got into uni which is something you'd be unable to do today.

Original poster
happygardening · 08/02/2012 19:54

I'm still not sure that anyone has satisfactorily defined the term "liberal school". I think we would all agree that Summerhill is liberal but when it comes to others like Bedales I think that once you?ve cut away the calling teachers by their first names and no uniform etc its probably pretty similar to others. I just don?t see bread making and outdoor activities as liberal because it all part of a structured day.

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Charlotteperkins · 08/02/2012 19:51

In some ways my school was 'liberal'.

Didn't bother their arses with bullying.

Knew of pupils high on acid during lessons but didn't expel them.

Same goes for tolerance of fighting and sex between 13yos on trips.

During 1 trip the teachers took the 14/15yos to the pub to drink and ^had a go at me for not wanting to go^!

lyonheart · 08/02/2012 19:28

Just out of interest, which schools do people think are liberal?

Original poster
happygardening · 08/02/2012 14:39

Don?t worry MrsJ it?s going to take a lot more than you to make me feel uncomfortable; curious where you've got this view from yes but uncomfortable no.

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MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 08/02/2012 14:08

Happygardening - The fact that I don't think Win Coll is liberal shouldn't make you feel uncomfortable. Being liberal isn't a good or bad thing, it's just a thing. We all look for different things in a school.

genug · 08/02/2012 11:06

It seems that both here and irl parents will differ in whether they judge a school by form or substance, and come to the conclusions they want to. Whether a school commits to a liberal education has nothing to do with how hip the PR is. DCs chose schools from ultra traditional to uber cool and they are all liberal.

Original poster
happygardening · 08/02/2012 09:46

Meant to say:

At every school there will be hopefully only a very small group of unhappy parents/children but who are happy to voice their opinions loudly to all who will listen

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Original poster
happygardening · 08/02/2012 09:44

MrsJ I'm interested that you state that liberal means "no hand-holding, no herding and no spoon-feeding, respecting of the individual" but go onto to state that Win Coll is in your view not liberal at all.
In my personal experience there is definitely "no hand-holding, no herding and no spoon-feeding" at Win Coll and the individual is very very much respected. It this difference of opinion that prompted this posting in the first place. A friend with a DS at a well known boarding school (not Bedales) does not think its particularly liberal and this is very contrary to many posting on MN by those who appear also to be in the know. I think this shows just how differently we perceive things. I would also like to add that as MrsJ I know you don't have a DS at Win Coll so you are in a less able position to comment than I and that any views you have on it are at the very best second hand and again are someone else's perceptions.
This just shows how difficult it is to get an opinion on a particular school by listening to other parents etc. At every school there will be hopefully a very small group of unhappy parents/children who are happy to voice their opinions loudly to all who will listen. Schools by there nature can't work for everyone. But this leaves parents in a very difficult position who do they turn to for advise: bland guides, headmasters who sit on the fence or should they have more faith in their own gut feelings?

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