Dulwich or Whitgift?

Here is the Trinity HMs newsletter, the first section of which explains why the league tables are misleading. I imagine this is equally relevant to Whitgift.

Chelseatina You can not rely on the league tables as there are significant omissions wrt the different exams available. Quite frankly, the league tables are a load of nonsense.

As a prospective parent whose DS did not manage to get place at KCS 10+ entrance exam I am looking at Dulwich college and Whitgift with a view for trying for 11+entry.

Chelseatina and Meditrina you both say that the intake at Dulwich College is more academic, I have compared both OFSTED reports and there is nothing to choose between them, their intake is virtually the same! ( look at 1.2 in both reports, does the 'rich but thick' apply to Dulwich then ?) However one of Dulwich Colleges recommendations for improvement in the OFSTED report is to challenge its more able. Whitgift seem to do this by and large, hence its 'outstanding' OFSTED report as opposed to Dulwich College's 'good'.

Most academic schools incuding Dulwich College weed out those who do not get the required 'points' at GCSE. So your point Meditrana about why DC does not top the league tables does not hold.

I have looked at league tables The FT one and 'TOP 100 Senior Schools A* A and B grade' and again whitgift features in this. Dulwich College it seems is not in this catergory. These league tables recognise the IB'

I too am glad that Chelseatina is not advising me re secondary schools. I am certainly going to do my homework and look for myself rather than relying on outdated conceptions as both schools appear of equal calibre by and large

And out of interest where does St Paul's come on the league table that you're looking at?

Chelseatina, as a Year 6 teacher advising on future schools you are aware that the Whitgift foundation took the decision (along with lots of independent schools) to withdraw all 3 of their schools from league tables a couple of years ago, aren't you?! They did appear in the FT league table last year (which is put together by the journalists doing their own review of information published by the schools, rather than by the schools submitting their results) and came 40th to Dulwich's 58th. But as they have an increasing number of boys doing IB whilst the majority do A levels I think that the league table comparisons are pretty difficult.

Oh, For Heaven's sake, Basildon Bond, just look up the 2011 Independent GCSE & A level results - out of roughly 400 listings, Whitgift doesn't even appear! Res ipsa loquitur! End of.

As ever one has to take the guide's words with a pinch of salt I guess, but then again the music school was closed on Open Day which I found slightly odd. Every other school had something musical on show on open day so Dulwich stood out in that regard.

Ladymuck, I'm puzzled by the statement that DC boys are encouraged to drop art and music from the end of year 9. I have completely the opposite impression, and my son is in his final year at DC. The music at DC is fantastic and many boys play/sing in numerous ensembles to a very high standard. The current head boy plays in the Symphony Orchestra and is also a very successful cross-country runner (competitive races). He has an offer of a place at Cambridge, I believe, so it clearly hasn't harmed his academic work.

The Croydon preps used to send boys to Dulwich and Westminster each year (with more going to Whitgift due to geography and generous scholarships), but the numbers going to DC have dropped off. We visited DC a couple of years ago and one of the senior masters was surprised that anyone would bother to drive past Whitgift to get to DC ( and he had taught at both).

The other thing that struck us is that when we asked our obviously talented pupil-guide about art and music, he indicated that boys were expected to drop those activities by end of year 9 to concentrate on academic studies.

The FT tables looks at the Oxbridge/Imperial offer rates for schools and DC and Whitgift v similar. In fact Whitgift marginally higher.

If you get offers for both it is definitely worth visiting each again on a normal working day. The schools will expect a number of parents to ask to visit.

For mamerry

Sports at Whitgift aren't just for the sports stars... There are A, B, C and D teams for major sports and a massive range of activities, so if no good at rugby or cricket, boys can choose rowing for example. The school also runs sports development sessions on Saturday mornings for boys who haven't so many opportunities of playing sports as many of the prep school boys which helps bring them up to the right standard.

Ds is very happy there - it suits him perfectly and he is exceptionally bright (level 4s at the end of Y2, 5s across the board in Y4) and so would have been able enough for the 'top tier' but he's also very sporty and bouncy and the ultra-academic schools just didn't feel right for him

My sister taught at DC and we know several boys there across the year groups so I've been able to compare ds's experiences with theirs pretty accurately

My apologies for posting useless redundant information. I'll leave the thread.

Isn't that what I just suggested??

I've known boys pass for Westminster but choose Dulwich. Not all parents go by academic reputation. Any, indeed all, of these schools will send an academically able child out with their string of A*s, and also most children will be happy anywhere they can settle.

It should be a personal decision, based on everything a school offers plus how it fits with family logistics.

Personally, I'm a bit dubious about those who don't seem able to see beyond a narrow academic reputation. There is so much more to school life. You just need to have the confidence to do what is right for you and you DC, without worrying about what other people think.

Yes, children can be turned down by Alleyn's and Latymer, yet get offers from top tier schools - those pupils will have most likely passed all of their entry tests and proceeded to the interview stage. At the interview stage, a school will assess a particular pupil's suitability based on their school profile and other variables. The interview stage, in some cases, is the deciding factor - not necessarily the exam Mark. It is rare that a pupil will have passed a KCS, St Paul's or Westminster exam and then "failed" a Dulwich, Alleyn's or Latymer exam - the pass rate at the top tier schools is naturally higher. Saying that, however, from my experience I note that the contents of the Latymer Upper exam is excessively difficult for an 11+ exam!
Schools like Alleyn's and Latymer are, academically, ever so slightly below the top tier, but they are very sought after because they are great schools, co ed, and have a broad range of superb extra curricular activities, etc - the emphasis at those schools is less of a "hot house" environment than the top tier... Hampton is quite a good school- so is Ibstock, but they would be juxtaposed ever so slightly below Alleyn's and Latymer - imperceptibly below!
Saying that, a school has to suit your child's aspirations, interests and academic ability AND it has to have the right "feel" or give off the right "vibes" for your child and your family. Just because a school is top of the top tier, and your child passed the test, doesn't mean that they want to go there or that they'll be happy there... But, it is important that parents know the difference between schools, so that they can make educated decisions, as opposed to equating all schools equally in terms of academic rigour...

From Chelsea?

Where do Ibstock, Hampton and Latymer Upper sit in the list?

I am curious, not least because I have known certainly Alleyns and Latymer to reject children who subsequently get places at "top tier" schools, and indeed parents who have rejected "top tier" schools in favour of Alleyns, Latymer and....Whitgift.

Spot on, Meditrina!

For boys/coed? With a south London focus?

KCS Wimbledon, St Pauls and Westminster are the top academic choices.

Just behind them, CLB (very fashionable at the moment, hard exam), Alleyns, Dulwich (especially with the new head, but will never top the tables as it doesn't chuck out lower performing boys after GCSE)

Others: Harrodian,(improving academically, but yet to completely shed its "rich thick" label (sorry)), Whitgift. Emmanuel.

It doesn't mean that the less prestigious schools offer are in any way bad - in /around London they're all good. And the best school is the one your DS thrives in and is happy at, and IMO that is nothing to do will a repetitional pecking order, and perhaps we'd do better if we acknowledged, then consciously decided to ignore, any such list.

Interesting. I must live near you and have friends who are agonising over 11+ and particularly about where to send their boys.

Given the relatively small number of schools how do you rank them, assuming that transport is not an issue. Eg does Whitgift come after City and Dulwich but before Latymer Upper and Emanuel? Where does Alleyns sit? Hampton? Ibstock? Harrodian?

Sorry about the thread hijack. My perception is that Whitgift and Latymer Upper are rising fast in popularity and I have seen people caught out by the fact that neither can be seen now as a safe fall back, even for boys aiming mainly for a "top tier" school. Indeed places at Emanuel are becoming harder to get, with someone telling me that this year they received so many applications that they moved the deadline forward. (I did not really follow, but got the message that it is worth getting applications in early.)

My own view is that a lot depends on the child and Londoners are lucky to have a good range of schools to chose from. (Provided you can afford the fees and can get a place!) Certainly one of my DC thrives by being one of the strong within the cohort whilst another thrives in a pretty academic environment.

Thanks.

Perhaps I am being too harsh in my assessment of Whitgift, as compared to more prestigious schools - the comparisons are simply unfair- in it's own right, Whitgift is a fine establishment. Of course it is true that if your child is motivated and happy, they will thrive wherever they are- for some pupils, the diversity of academic standanding amongst other pupils gives a sense a well-rounded ness. This can be contrasted with some top tier schools where the pressure to obtain A* in every subject is enormous and, if your child is über competitive, this is the environment that they will thrive in, as opposed to the latter...like I said before, horses for courses... I guess I tend to look for the schools that will push my brightest students, as I am also responsible for the Gifted and Talented provision at our school.

As my son often has sporting fixtures with independent schools almost every weekend for, e.g., football, rugby and cricket, I have the advantage of visiting most of the independent schools throughout the year and speaking with a variety of parents and pupils...so, in answer to your question my daddy - yes, I have been to Whitgift several times over the past few years. Further, the bus links to and from the school is something I wasn't exactly too sure about originally and I admit that that particular issue was inaccurate..however, I am correct in saying that, from Chelsea, where I live, there is no school bus route to the school... Just saying...
I agree with you that Whitgift is a good school and that I would definitely go there before considering many other schools - but, given the choice between a top school like Dulwich and it, I would certainly choose Dulwich. Just saying...

Have you actually visited both the schools RECENTLY@ Chelseatina?
Or do you just form your opinion from what parents and kids at other schools say? Of course most kids are going to say the school they attend is better.As for the league tables it is false that the Whitgift is so far down they don't appear. I a lot of the kids at the Whitgift take the IB in preference to the equivalent UK A level qualification and these do not appear in league tables.
can I also refer you to the respected FT Independent tables. This puts the Whitgift above DC.

rankings.ft.com/secondary-schools/secondary-schools-2011

DC is a good school and well up there. But to run the Whitgift down as you have done with several falsehoods and inaccuracies is not fair and does not give balance.The Whitgift is certainly not just about sport.I have compared both schools GCSE and A level results for 2011 and yes though DC has a better average for A/A* there really is not much to choose between them. I'd hardly call Whitgifts results floundering as you did.

As Basisdon said:
Both schools will get good/excellent results if your son's prepared to work for them (and not if they're not).

Btw, Whitgift has and has had for several years an extensive school bus provision. So please stop telling your year 6 parents that it doesn't.

I am sorry, but I have not had the experience that anyone prefers Whitgift over Dulwich? From my experience, pupils/parents oftentimes apply to Whitgift and Emanuel as "safety net"/"back-up" choices, just in case they do not gain entry to their first, second or, indeed, third choice schools... I am sorry to keep banging on about this, but I work in Year 6 of a local primary school and am in charge of Secondary Transfer (for the last 10 years) and can honestly say that this is how it is... Apologies for offending anyone...but I am incredulous that anyone would place Whitgift in the same category as Dulwich. Apologies, again...!

To some extent you will need to go with your instincts. Over the past five years there as been an increasing tendency to prefer Whitgift over Dulwich, but they are both great schools. Well done!

Remember that league tables are the results of other people's children, and indeed children who entered the school 7 years ago. Dulwich also has a reputation for "importing" bright sixth formers which will again improve their results.

So: ease of journey; extra curricular; size of the year group; feel of the school...