Sutton Grammar School - Why all the secrecy if they have nothing to hide?

Thanks again prh47bridge, I won't be going down the DPA route as its just idle curiosity really.

Before looking at this thread I hadn't even realised there was a pass / fail mark aside from the score above which you are offered a place.

Yes they are a bit but they are not particularly unusual. They will have to change for the next admissions round.

If you make a subject access request under the Data Protection Act they will have to tell you whether your child passed or failed and what marks they were awarded.

So according to the new rules coming in, and the current guidance that they should let applicants know, are Tiffin being a bit crap by not revealing pass / fail before March 1st?

I was under the impression that we would never find out either pass, fail or actual point scores for Tiffin, only whether our DC had been allocated a place at the end of it all.

Selective schools are encouraged to give the outcome (pass or fail) before the deadline for admission applications so that parents don't waste a preference on a school where their child has no chance of getting a place. From this year that becomes compulsory.

But I agree that the OP's complaint about the timing of the exam is irrelevant to her original complaint, which seems to be that she wants to know her son's score and see her son's paper so that she can personally check that the examiners have got it right and her son hasn't been the victim of a conspiracy to keep him out of this school.

Hi bruffin

I didn't think that GS were allowed to give such feedback before March 1st. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up.

Is it possible that if there were to do this they will at the same time reveal who HAS passed ahead of March 1st? Just a thought

They have published the results of who passed and who failed and it looks like op knows her ds has failed but wants to know how much by etc
from op's earlier post.

They disregard this advice and hold their exam in November 2011, notifying parents on 17 January if their children have passed or failed. The school says they do not guarantee a place to children who have passed.

This thread was started on 26th jan

"Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet"

I don't get the OP's point. Are you expecting to have a rejection before offers day. Why would they do that as then other parents could work out if their children had got in by not having a rejection letter. Everyone else has to be patient!

The OP originally asked 'does anyone have any idea why Sutton Grammar School are refusing to publish the results of boys who have not passed the exam?'

Is it possible that if there were to do this they will at the same time reveal who HAS passed ahead of March 1st? Just a thought.

The grammar schools all have their own admissions process and criteria which you are well aware of when applying for your child to sit the 11+ exam at the said school. Therefore, why all the questioning after they tell you whether your child is "of selective ability" for that school?? We know the process and we know there is no guarantee of a place until March 1st . Not a lot we can do about this. Personally, I think that many local comprehensives are more suspect than the grammar schools in their ever changing catchment areas and the way they deal with their admissions. At least the grammar schools make it clear from the start. To be honest I was chuffed to bits for my DC when DC had passed to said grammar schools. Yes, we are waiting until 1st March to know if guarantee of place but we knew the rules at the start! If he doesn't get any grammar school place, we are then into the dodgy world of comprehensive postcode lottery.

ATruth - The OP has kind of made me feel quite a wimp. To make up for it I'm going to complain to DC's school tonight. I'm not sure about what yet.

PushyDad - from that last post I don't think you're quite as pushy as you previously thought

Can you imagine what Parents Evening would be like? What do you mean DC is doing fine? What do you mean by 'fine'? Why won't you elaborate? Are other children doing better than fine? Why are you being so vague? :)

It's all gone quiet so hoping that you were just having a bad day Incandescent...... it gets to us all but I think the thing is to try to rise above it...easier said than done......

Ours is not to reason why?!

I am afraid your own grasp of the relevant law is shaky to say the least. Your most recent post is riddled with inaccuracies.

From later this year grammar schools will be required to publish the results of selection tests before the deadline for applications. However, under the current Admissions Code this is a "should", which means it is recommended but not compulsory. Sutton is by no means the only grammar school to conduct its tests after the deadline for applications. It is not ideal but they have not broken any rules. They will, however, have to work to a different timetable for their tests for boys wanting to start in 2013.

Their letter is absolutely correct in saying that passing the exam does not guarantee a place. They are required to make that clear to parents. If the number of children passing the exam is greater than the number of places available they must allocate places in line with their admission criteria.

Note that the new admissions code merely requires schools to inform parents of the outcome of selection tests prior to the applications deadline. That could be interpreted as simply meaning they need to inform parents whether their child has passed or failed rather than publishing the individual marks.

Contrary to your assertion you cannot obtain data about the results of successful applicants under the Freedom of Information Act. That is personal information. At best you can get aggregated data, so for example you may be able to find out the average marks of those who passed. You certainly cannot find out the marks of individual candidates.

It is true that Sutton would have to respond to a Subject Access Request for the examiners comments (if any) and your son's marks. However, the Data Protection Act gives them much longer to respond to such requests than for other types of Subject Access Request. This is so that candidates in exams cannot use the Data Protection Act to find out their results early. So the school is perfectly entitled to refuse to respond to your Subject Access Request (if you have made one) until March. By the way, if the examiners have made comments on the exam script Sutton should either blank out your child's answers or copy the examiners' comments into a separate document before giving them to you, so you still won't get to see your child's answers.

You seem to persist in viewing this as some vast conspiracy by Sutton Grammar School to fiddle the results in order to deprive your son of a place. I can see absolutely no evidence of this.

Even if they were to give you your son's marks there is absolutely nothing you can do with them at this stage. You cannot appeal until he has been refused admission. That won't happen until March.

As I've said elsewhere, the one positive thing is that the longer we muse on these issues, the closer we're getting to the 1st March - less than 5 weeks to go now everyone!

You have put your case powerfully Incandescent but as I previously commented, I think that it seems as if the individual schools interpret the laws differently - not sure why.

Certainly know that various friends with DSs who (just) failed Wilson's 11+ were quite happy to know that they had only failed by a few points on the grounds that it was encouraging for Sutton and Tiffin 11+ exams......

I do find the whole notion of theoretically guaranteeing a place by revealing results just doesn't wash though - and how come it's feasible for Nonsuch to do this but not the others (although they do have the proximity to the catchment aread to factor in)? But then I'm not a school registrar and feel pretty sure that they have an unenviable task twixt 11+ exam date and the beginning of the next academic year!

Wilsons did. They changed their exam date last year. I know DS2 passed but not where in the pecking order he appears.

Incandescent, you seem to have changed your mind as to what you home to achieve - is it to help your son "fix" his mistakes or "My son has nothing to gain or lose from this debate but I do think that when next year two thousand boys line the streets of Sutton to sit the Sutton Grammar Exam, this may be my insignificant contribution to their fair access to tax-funded grammar school places."

Because I honestly can not work out what your problem is.

Incadecent I don't think any grammars did their exams and results before 31st October 2011. The changes in dates are due to come into effect for 2013 admissions.

I think I know which one you are talking about - DS has applied there too!

(ps...as selective schools, a good half of them should be well above average )