Research about grammar intake..

I don't think a test exists that would avoid the advantages problem.

seeker, I think that was the idea behind using VR and NVR tests. And these tests would do that if all the children came to it cold. However now parents have got wise to the fact children can be coached for them, it probably discriminates more in favour of MC children than tests based on the maths and English that they are doing at school.

How do you mean, slave? What if they were supportive but didn't speak much English?

So grammar schools should only be a step out of disadvantage for children who have committed and motivated parents who are literate, have access to the internet and understand how the system works?

Of course not. But it is unrealistic to expect every GS to do a huge amount to encourage more people to apply when tey are already massively oversubscribed, and are already taking a significant number of pupils from state schools.

It's great to hear that there are schools out there that do reach out to deprived areas, but I generally base my opinions on GS's on the one that ds attends, and I know they are all very different.

DS's school only takes 100 children each year, and I think children came from 64 different schools at the last intake. That sounds like enough diversity to me, because they cover a huge area.

It would be much easier for GS's to reach out if they weren't continually at the bottom of the pile when it comes to funding because of the results they get, and parents do have to take some responsibilty for their own children. It can't and shouldn't have to be left up to the state to sort out all the problems parents create. And tbh, I can't see how a child with illiterate and/or unsupportive parents would cope at our GS, and it would be almost cruel to try and make them.

schoolhelp I have absolutely no idea what your point is.

It's not often I say that.

I do want to understand.

could you write a couple of simple short sentences outlining it?!

Not you, seeker, only the idea that academic selection contributes more to lack of social mobility than selection by distance. I think you mean well, we see different choices.

I think you may live in a grammar county, we don't. Good comp entry is much harder here than non catchment grammar. [We don't like the process for independents' bursaries either. Actually we can't afford it, almost all charge £30 just to apply, only one or two don't.] But it's free to apply for a grammar, and the travel is similar to the nearest undersubscribed comp... I'm happy for every single child that makes the grammar, if they were tutored they didn't choose those parents, did they?

There's enough experience of the comp system for grammar counties to avoid the worst mistakes if they really wanted to change things. But that isn't what most people want, it seems.

So are you going to walk the talk and get a petition to ballot for abolition? Surely "they" would sign and get to the school that way?

Pardon me for sniggering.

well seeker you seem bent on saying grammar school entry testing is the main factor denying brighter disadvantaged kids their social mobility. And ignoring the fact that it's the closed catchment aspect that matters to RL disadvantaged kids.

But you carry on focussing on what you want. Why not try to start a ballot, believe that's been tried twice and failed so far?

Are there two completely different threads going on here?

well seeker I think you know this is not about my kids, because we failed to get into the catchment comp we wanted, and they had reasonable fall backs [albeit with some inconvenience] if they hadn't made their grammar. But we're all old enough to know [even with my mental age of 5] that people tend to hear what they want unless they try harder.

You started the thread about the "quality" of grammar school kids. Which did not chime with the kids I see. But I see that in those residual grammar school counties, you'd get boundary issues at a lower level, hence the comments about children, who cannot be blamed for being lucky on the day.

What is it you don't understand about my community helping each other out, with what we discover about schools? It's not really that different from MN, except there is the bonus of a RL person and kids with RL needs. Makes up for our overcrowding, more than occasional missed meals [thank heavens for FSMs], swimming lessons, what are they?, but there is time to talk despite the grind, because there is no TV, no games, no heating, only hot water from kettles, so we do a lot together as a family to get ready for the world every day. The medical schools love it when you've spent every holiday for several years looking after a dying relative, because you know at 17 what dying is truly like and what the grind really is, but I guess some would see that as an outrageous advantage.

"fuck everyone else"? They're doing it very well already without our help. Just don't even fool us into thinking abolishing academic selection is helping. You have problems understanding what we value and the choices we face daily.

slave grammars can be expected to do just that (go into deprived areas to reach out to bright kids). Indeed the way things have gone, they have a duty to do just that.

Pate's is a very good example.

schoolhelp I'm not sure what you base your views about the intake of super-selectives on: unfortunately intensive tutoring can skew the intake at these schools as well.

We poorer classes found out that foolish competitiveness only gets bad outcomes. The emotional bruising apart. So we actually SHARE...

but must go, back later!

seeker if you saw offence when you didn't like a point of view, that's your problem. "The most offensive thing", well wakey wakey lovey.

You do seem to have a blockage with the point that in some grammars, the intake is of a "quality" far above the original top quartile concept, and lack of catchment is the main driver of so called super-selectives. Tutoring will not provide access for anyone who is not of that potential. These are simply academically selective non-catchment schools. Kids there do not struggle intellectually. Luck plays a part in any selection process.

Perhaps you live in one of the few remaining authorities that have a fair few grammars, and tutoring affects the 75-80th centiles. If that's your reality, well, it's not the reality of most of this country.

Hey ho, RL beckons, on to home #2...

Viva, that could be solved if more areas were covered by good grammar schools. I think every child should have access to a grammar school, but most of the country doesn't seem to have them.

schoolhelp WTactualF are you on about?

goldie part of me feels that your dd should be entitled to a GS place the same as anyone else, you pay your taxes after all. But if your dd has been at a prep school, she has had an advantage over children that have been to not particularly good state schools.

If only a small percentage of places were offered to prep school children, and the vast majority went to state school children, then it would go some way to making sure that only the very brightest children from the prep schools got a place at GS, rather than the ones who were lucky enough to have the right preparation to do well in the test. There would also be more places available for very bright children who didn't have good preparation, but do have the intelligence. There is never going to be a completely perfect way when it comes to selection on the basis of 1-3 tests held on one day.

Seeker, I don't think that not living in overcrowded conditions and being able to afford one out of school activity means you are privelidged. Many families live like that and get benefots in teh form of tax credits. 'Middle class' can cover a huge range of children and for many, they have a long way to go before they can be considered to be privelidged. They have as much right to go to grammar schools as working class children or children whose families are on benefits.

You talk about children whose parents have the education to help them, but it doesn't take education to help children achieve their potential. It takes love and commitment to your children's welfare, that's all. It's not the fault of GS's that they have a low intake of children on FSM's. That's the fault of the parents that use FSM's. There is no real reason why they can fill in an application form and download a couple of free 11+ practice papers in the same way the rest of us do. Motivated parents will do that if they care enough whether they are poor or rich. The grammar schools are still state schools, they cannot be expected to go in to run down areas where there is high deprivation and work out the brightest children just because their parents can't be bothered to parent properly.

In our area there is a pass Mark for the grammar school and more kids pass than there are places. The places are then allocated on a nearest distance to the school basis.

There are middle class families from some distance away who rent a cheap terrace house near the school, don't live there and get in. Now forgetting for a minute how wrong this is, Obviously a less affluent family couldn't afford to do it.

And yes then there is the coaching side of it.

seeker, don't worry about it, judging by (her?) posts schoolhelp is a little out of touch with reality.

"poo bottoms"???? How many people use that phrase after the age of 5?

Surely grammar school places should be available to all academically able pupils regardless what primary education they received? My very bright, extremely hardworking DD is currently in a non-selective prep school. She is there because at age 3 the local nursery attached to the primary school offered only 2 hours in the afternoon, so I decided to send her to the nursery of the prep school. When she came to reception age she was settled and happy so I didn't want to move her.

She has now sat 11+ exams and did extremely well. I bought papers online and tutored her myself as the prep school prepares for independent schools (Disclaimer - I am not a teacher). The tests for private schools are considerably different to the grammar school tests.

So my question is, why shouldn't my bright DD who I feel a grammar school is the right place for her not be "entitled" to a grammar school because she was tought in a prep school so far?