Foul bevaviour at previously fantastic cofe school - teachers' advice welcome

timetoask you appear to have misunderstood my point. I do not have low expectations of my pupils and neither does my school. But high expectations are not enough to stop a kid kicking off if they really want to.

In my school if you swear at a teacher you will be excluded (internal or external). That doesn't mean that no child ever swears at at teacher. Like I said, I think all state schools have students who will occasionally kick off.

And permanent exclusion is a very long process which needs to be followed and files of evidence collected. Some people seem to think that if a kid kicks off you can just boot them out. You can't. Not without trying other strategies first. Unless, of course, the incident is so serious that their place in school is untenable.

Yes, you are right, it is easier for independent schools to expel constantly disruptive pupils writes cheque

That's true - I know of a private school round our way where children have been "managed out" as they call it before they get to the secondary school (where results and league tables kick in).

I also know of some parents with dc with SN who have moved them independent to state as the SN provision is percieved to be better.

As it should be. But that still leaves the OP and the "doing ok" kids left out on a limb in the middle doesn't it? All down to resources as usual I guess.

Furminator - you are right of course - but maybe school is more of a refuge then if the resulting disruptive behaviour isnt as prevalent and the children can at least learn and try and do well and rise out of whatever issues they have at home. I went to independent secondary abroad and you're right - there were issues with drugs, pregnancies, abortions, alcohol etc - mostly stemming from children given too much money and not enough parental attention. One of my classmates is now in prison. But at school everyone was pretty much able to learn and do well if they wanted to (that was the base expectation) and no lessons were disrupted so the other children weren't affected.

Not that I am a massive proponent of private schools mind - but as a parent of young dc the level of expectation shown on this thread is very worrying, and it sounds like teachers have a much harder balancing act than they used to.

I can see both sides of the argument of course - children who have experienced the terrible things mentioned here obviously should have all and every resource made available to them. And the rich kids are always allright - Daddy always bales them out ime. But you do have to wonder what is wrong in our society when the "normal" kids with parents who try and help where they can (and arent actively abusing them) seem to have absolutely no incentive to do well.

I think I'm going to join you!

My dc are in independent pimary and we were planning on state secondary (financial - holidays would be nice, and because of positive discrimination for uni these days (imo)) but maybe not!

Do you really genuinely think that children that go to independent schools never have terrible problems at home? I am stunned by that. I can't be bothered to carry on with the discussion to be honest.

"We've got kids who will disrupt lessons, swear at teachers etc. I think all state schools probably do."

How sad that a teacher has such low expectations of her pupils. I have not read all the thread, but some of the posts written by teachers seem to imply that this type of behaviour is expected and doesn't need to be taken seriously.

Maybe if schools expected higher standards of behaviour from pupils, this type of situation would be frowned upon, instead of just accepting it as normal. I think I might start saving for private secondary education!

At dd1's school there is a very clear code of practice on what happens at each stage when there are breaches of law/school rules. It is all very transparent. That doesn't seem to be the case at state school and I wonder why?

It sounds awful. The views saying this is totally normal in state education make me suddenly feel quite relieved my dd1 is at an independent secondary.

Ime there are schools that manage to steer a sensible middle path between breach of confidentiality and complete helplessness. All dcs' schools have been strong on discipline (ordinary state schools, not Outstanding, lower to middling area).

When I have been in to raise any concerns, I have always taken care to phrase it in terms of "how can you reassure my child that they will be safe/not bullied etc?" rather than demanding any specific course of action to be taken concerning the other child.

In return, the school has answered exactly that. They have not given any details about the other child's circumstances or exactly what they will do to them, but they have made it clear that the matter will be dealt with- and dcs have then reported that there has been no re-occurrence. From dcs' picking up of school gossip I have sometimes got an idea of the kind of disciplinary measures they use (temporary exclusion etc). And certainly you can get expelled (several children got expelled from dd's junior school), but it will be at the end of a systematic procedure.

'confidentiality' is a word that is away overused, an excuse really not to follow up and sort out the problem.
HoD: how often do you observe lessons? How often are you checking on what's going on?
Wherever there is NO CONSISTENCY there is chaos.
How many teachers told OP to mind her business? Isn't that what everyone is doing in the schools?

I have a friend who is a teacher.

Ordinary, perfectly "fine" state school.

Student A (12yo) screamed at teacher X that she was a bitch.
Student A then hit teacher Y in the face, knocking his glasses off.
Student A then assaulted teacher Z and when teacher Z restrained her arms, she said that she would report him as a paedophile.

My friend basically said that the school were powerless to do anything meaningful. Detentions were not attended, parents of A not bothered about what she had done. Indeed, they wanted to blame student B, who A said had verbally upset her, hence her actions!

Honestly, I don't know what you have to do to get expelled from a secondary school these days.

OP - I don't see what you can do really. School can't give you info due to confidentiality and school are actually powerless to do anything punishment wise anyway at the end of the day.

Denial. Denial. Denial...

pastoral I'm a teacher with over 20 years' experience and I have never used a bright pupil 'as a TA almost'. And I have never seen it in all the lessons I have observed as a HoD. Perhaps it's just you...
ANd as for the other complaints in your post above, I have mnet very few teachers like that in all the years and 6 schools I have worked in.

Sad to say nothing unusual about comments here. If anyone is bothered about their child's education then contact the school about that matter but you can't comment on others unless they are having an impact on your child's education. I do sympathise though - why should the education of the majority be damaged by a select few - simple if they won't behave despite outside intervention then in my opinion they have no place in a mainstream school - the rewards should be there for those children who conform and behave and wish to learn - and there should be severe sanctions for those who do not. My ds is a very high achiever and is expected to do well but I still reward him for doing so and believe me the sanctions are there if he steps out of line with any member of staff (highly unlikely but....!) The problem is that the teaching staff sometimes have to do their job with both hands tied behind their backs and it does not help. Those who cause trouble should be removed, those who God forbid attack others including teaching staff should be physically removed and then handed straight over to the police for them to deal with. Teachers need more powers to hammer down on bad behaviour and need protection when doing it!! Children should be there to behave, learn and respect the teaching staff whilst doing it!! (Can't you tell I'm old school ).

I'm afraid I'm with the OP on this one. I don't care what the pupils home life's are like they get a short exclusion that everyone knows they have had. Otherwise disruptive nonsense spreads.
Pupils have to know from day one of senior school that the head and senior staff have limits to what will be tolerated. Y7 and Y8 are still very young logically they can understand that they shouldn't mess about like x does, but it's terribly tempting especially with teachers who find class control hard.
I don't mind any amount of help and support for children with problems behind the scenes and efforts being made to ensure children are not permanently excluded.
I was actually surprised that the worst member of DDs dreadful MFL class seems to have got his marching orders long term.

Apols for typos, it's clearly time for me to go to bed and ponder how to offer the bare minimum tomorrow

"We all know that good. hard working pupils are being used in every classroom as TAs almost!"
Eh? I don't know anything of the kind pastoral and I am a teacher too, albeit merely a woolly liberal trainee one.

To the OP, I would suggest that an exclsuion can hardly "send a message into the local community" as exclusion of a pupil is hardly a matter for publication or discussion tbh. You have no idea how issues involving other pupisl are being dealt with (and rightly so). I agree with others, speak to school about your child and how she is being affected. Anything else is not your concern.

The most disturbed child my dcs have ever been to school with had seen his dad murder his mum. By the time he took to acting his troubles out at school, neither of his parents were in much of a position to act up or shut up- one was dead and the other in jail.

Yes, he was referred and yes, he was supported and yes, money was spent on him. But that didn't sort his problems. So what were they supposed to do with them? They could hardly lock him up for life- he hadn't committed a crime. He was just very disturbed. So they did the best they could: treated him and tried to help him deal with a mainstream school in the hope that he would grow up able to lead a normal life. As maybe he will- but it won't happen overnight.

Dcs never knew what was wrong, but they saw enough to realise that this little boy had problems that were just completely beyond anything they had ever experienced.

I am clear in my posts: going the extra mile for everyone is key and fair.
A lot of teachers are not consistent, don't care, hardly know their pupils, use the highly able as helpers, use humiliation to control, lazy,.....All honest and hard working teachers out there! Do you know someone or many in your faculty? Does it annoy you? Do you do anything about it? Can you do anything about it really? Let's be honest...

Children will happily live down to expectations. Far too many teachers have too low expectations and are happy to make excuses for poor behaviour.

I say that as a victim of child abuse whose become a post graduate professional because I was taught not to let my past ruin my (or anyone else's) future.

You have my sympathies OP. it is in the best interests of everybody if these girls have their behaviour tackled; especially them.

"Surely if the children are from dreadful backgrounds then they need to be referred to agencies or schools which have the specialist units to help them"

and are the taxpayers currently happy to pay for specialist units in every town for every single child from a dysfunctional background?

funny, I didn't think people were that keen on extra taxes atm