Dyslexic DS - any chance of passing grammar school exams?

Longlost That is true but there are plenty of people with SEN that are very intelligent. Famous ones include / included Alan Turing, Einstein, Bill Gates, Richard Branson. Often people with SpLD do well later in their school career once they have adopted coping strategies.

It can be hard for people who perform well academically to get diagnoses for the special needs they do have as the coping strategies they often develop mean they fall outside the 'requires support' bracket.
As it happens we have quite a few dyspraxic and dyslexic students and the odd student with ADHD. The main SEN we see is actually Asperger's/Autism. I suspect we have a few undiagnosed students on the spectrum too: several of these were not spotted at primary.

The thing is though, if you look at the stats for SEN in state grammars, the percentages tend to be extremely and excessively low yes of course it is, because much of SEN relates to low academic potential, MLD, etc, and grammar schools are for children with high academic potential.

The thing is though, if you look at the stats for SEN in state grammars, the percentages tend to be extremely and excessively low.

dyslexia is certainly no barrier to grammar school

You can pay for a private Ed Psych assessment for dyslexia. However, check with the school and local authority if they will accept a private assessment... Some will some won't. A surprising significant number of university students each year have their first official diagnosis of dyslexia at university after gaining top a levels

NobodyInParticular don't worry! I took your post in the spirit it was intended, indeed found it funny. Perhaps my reply was too earnest, but I too am not convinced by the merits of Tiffin super-selection at 11.

NeedMoreSleep oh, goodness, I'm so sorry! I've re read my comment and realised it sounded like I was mocking your daughter, I honestly wasn't!!!That came across totally wrong! (FWIW my DC has SEN and could never dream of going to a school like Tiffin).

I was actually just trying to make a comment about the ridiculousness of competition for Grammar school places and Tiffin in particular, I honestly did not mean to infer anything about your DDs ability!!

You're right to be proud of her for being dedicated enough to even attempt entry.

Nobody, I can assure you we were very proud of her, and she, not understanding that no-one "fails", was also pleased to have made it to the wait list.

She is bright, and almost certainly would have been accepted for Tiffin sixth form. My guess is that she did so badly because:

Dyslexia reasons

1. Her processing speeds are low, and these exams are all about speed.
2. Her Non VR would have been streets ahead of her VR, and given the competition you need to be good at everything. Being gifted in one area is not enough. (I think this may be more true of girls schools, as girls may be less likely to have a strongly one-sided profile.)

Non dylexia reasons

1. Though she did some practice over the summer it was nothing like the amount others will have done. And no tutoring. You need the raw material, but with that level of competition practice and familiarity count for a lot.

Roughly 10 years ago we put both DC in for Tiffin, really as practice for private School exams, though might have considered moving had something come up. We lived in a complete education black hole, and indeed DS never received a state school offer. (They did phone in May suggesting they might have identified a place for DS somewhere in North London but never phoned back.) He was five marks off a place, in his case with no practice, but still 100th on the wait list.

The exam day was weird. We got on the train, and at each station more mothers and boys joined us, till the whole train was packed. Kingston Town Centre was then a river of mothers and boys converging on the school. It was like some strange horror fiction story where 10 year old boys are lured to an obscure KT postcode. Bentalls (Kingston's department store) was then filled with anxious mums wandering around aimlessly, though a small group remained outside the school gates wailing. DS reported that the atmosphere inside was seriously tense. Just about every room was used, and some boys broke down in tears, or threw up. He was impressed.

It worked for us as the Westminster and St Paul's pretests were low key in comparison, whilst DD had a bit of a jolt and willingly did extra work over the Christmas to help bring her English up to private 11+ standard.

Just to confirm again (teacher at grammar). We have a range of special educational needs in each year group. Heck, we even spot some that have gone undiagnosed (probably due to coping strategies that the children develop). Being dyslexic/dyspraxic/autistic or having any other access needs does not prevent you from taking the test or coming to the school.
Special access students do the test in a separate room if required.
We also have a very good, supportive SEN department. HTH.

she was placed 800th on the Tiffin wait list.

I know of Tiffin's reputation (1200 applications a year?) but its mind boggling to contemplate waiting lists of this size. I wonder how many staff are in their admissions team!?

Maybe I'll get DC to sit it just so I can get a letter telling me there are 1,199 people ahead of us on the waiting list .

Getting work experiencefor medicine/dentistry/vetinary is obviously a LOT harder for someone from those 50% of schools. My dd was clued up on what she needs to do but getting somewhere as a placement has proved really difficult. When we spoke to students on open days most had relatives/friends of parents that gave them some great opportunities. I know a lot of unis are now doing programmes to try to level this but this is mostly based on having parents who don't have a degree.

Well, my dyslexic child got the extra time for the entrance exams. We sent Ed Pysch report plus a stack of paperwork from the primary school. Definitely worth pursuing.

I am not suprised nor am i shocked, that 50% of secondary schools have never had a student apply to medical school.

The reasons , first of all how many schools don't have sixth forms (areas that use sixth form colleges). Secondly any pupils that are at the top of the abilty range , with the chance to go to medical school or Oxbridge are going to go to the school in the area with the best 6th form. This is assuming there are two comprehensives in one town Comp B has always got better grades at A levels than Comp A bingo ! Student leaves Comp A for Comp B .

Obviously in grammar school areas 'bright' children will be likely to be at the grammar. The kids who have done well at GCSEs from the 'local' school will either transfer to the grammar or the 'excellent' 'Academic' sixth form college.

I agree that the idea that 50% of secondary schools had NEVER had a pupil apply for medicine is shocking, as is the fact that some schools have very few pupils who apply to RG or equivalent Universities.

Some time ago I mentored a student at our local secondary (93% FSM) and it was clear that from the GCSE options she had available she would never had had a chance of aiming for medicine. Things are getting a bit better where I live with a couple of new stand alone sixth forms aimed at helping such pupils bridge the gap. But its still not good enough.

That said I suspect there is more at play with grammars and medical school, with perhaps a strong correlation between families who strongly prioritise academic attainment and are willing to focus time and effort on getting their children through Grammar school tests, and families who see "becoming a doctor" as a worthwhile end goal.

On holiday I met someone who taught chemistry at a fairly ordinary school in the north west who said that one of her problems were that a significant number of her pupils were being strongly encouraged to become doctors by their families. However quite a lot of these hard working girls were not going to be able to get an A in A level chemistry. Despite this I assume that the school also had a disproportionate number of girls going on to read medicine.

I'm not sure if the headline stats often tell you the full story in something as complex as class and education. And that is without throwing dyslexia into the mix.

Only 5% of pupils are educated at grammar schools but they account for 22% of medical students. More worrying though is that a staggering 50% of secondary schools have NEVER had a pupil apply to medical school.

I dont think any conclusions can be drawn about social mobility based on current grammar schools

Have to agree wholeheartedly with that. It seems a lot of the ant-grammar lobby are blinkered by super-selectives where, realistically, extensive tutoring is required to secure a place, and yes, that's not helpful and doesn't do anything for social mobility.

BUT, that's a long way from the old situation where virtually every town had a grammar and tutoring just wasn't needed - the typical bright kid would get a place on their merits without special coaching. In my town, we had two schools - the grammar was half the size of the secondary. So, the "top" third of local primary kids would get a grammar place - in fact, everyone did the 11+ during normal primary school lessons, they probably didn't even know they were doing it. That really did wonders for social mobility. Luckily, in my town, we don't have a super-selective and pass scores are relatively low (said to be around 70%) so tutoring isn't necessary and "normal" bright kids from "normal" backgrounds stand a good chance of a place!

I dont think any conclusions can be drawn about social mobility based on current grammar schools. Our nearest is hugely selective. Either a child needs to be exceptinally bright, top 1 or 2%, or needs to be coached for years in advance. (And kids really are coached for years and years.) I am not surprised that lots go on to read medicine. It is profession many of those pupils will have been actively encouraged to consider by their families or their peers.

Back in the day a good proportion of kids in an individual state primary class had a chance at grammar. Lots did from mine from quite ordinary (shop assistant etc) backgrounds. Even my dad, who came from a very unskilled working class background in New Cross passed for Grammar pre-war. Primary schools would support and encourage able kids. It was their golden ticket to the professions.

My big surprise given the combination of bright Grammar students who are reaching exceptionally high standards at the age of 11, and who have motivated and supportive families, is that the results are not as exceptional as you would expect. There were plenty of kids who had failed the 11+ at DDs independent school (lots of bitching about the infamous Mrs W and her daughter at Y7 coffee mornings) yet the independent had better results.

People will say this is down to small classes, money or whatever. In DDs case the important thing was a school where teachers were aware of dyslexia and who encouraged and supported her. Yes, she has been offered a place at medical school. No she probably would not have if she had been in a school, from whatever sector, that did not encourage her, set targets based on weak CAT results, and failed to recognise her potential.

sandyholme I agree with you that The FSM measure is a very limited statistic- and that someone just above or even quite a lot above it is not rich. However I think this statistic is mostly used to counter the argument about grammar schools promoting social mobility, a belief for which there is no evidence.

Badbadbunny I think you are probably right here.

I wasn't intending to derail the thread into an anti-grammar rant but so often I see statements that are either factually incorrect ("more state school students went to Oxbridge when we had more grammar schools" being my particular bugbear as it is provably false) or unsupported by evidence.

My dh is dyslexic/ dyspraxia and went to a comp and is a Doctor! ....but only diagnosed when he was 37! (IQ of 160)
Dd1 dyslexic / dyspraxic / dyscalculic went to comp which really floored her...went to independent school and is about to graduate with 2:1, then doing post grad at Edinburgh - statements so got extra time (IQ >130)
Dd2 dyslexic/ dyscalculic...went to local comp ( her choice!)but then did BTEC at FE college- continuous assessment rather than A levels , now doing MAsters degree in human resource management
Guess what I'm saying is there are many routes for education .... One size does not fit all and Grammar schools are VERY selective ....good luck with the exams and fight for your ds x

A lot of the 80% of medical students from well off backgrounds may be the children of medical professionals (doctors, dentists etc are high earners so probably will qualify as being "wealthy") though, so it may not necessarily be the wealth that opens doors for them. It could either be the tendency to follow in your parent's footsteps, i.e. perhaps children of doctors are more likely to become doctors themselves, and/or it could be that a doctor or dentist understands what is needed to get into medical school (as they've done it themselves) and so nurtures their children to do what it takes (i.e. work experience, out of school activities etc).

So it's a bit of a stretch to say it's the wealth per se that causes the gross over-representation - in actual fact, the wealth may have little or no impact, it could well be the parent's knowledge and influence that has more impact.

Correction.

Families are somehow considered middle class because they have incomes over £16K and no longer qualify for FSM.

The constant comments from certain posters that ' Grammar schools' are only for middle class families are very irritating .

People are always posting that grammar schools have such a low number of FSM pupils to back up this point. That assumes that because a family has an income of over £16k PA. A figure which is only £2k per year over what a full time minimum wage salary is of £14K.

We can therefore only say that grammar schools are not 'overly' represented by children from these families. We do not know how many grammar school pupils come from families with incomes between £20-50k I.E one/two parents in average paying jobs /careers . These familes can not in any way be considered , 'elite' or well off.

I wish posters would stop citing FSM numbers regarding grammar school admissions , because i think it is irrelevant !

There are a number of reasons has to why certain families/backgrounds are under represented at grammar schools . The fact of whether their family income is £14k or £25k PA is not the most significant one.

P.S my DS passed his 11+ with both Dyspraxia /Dyslexia .

so the Daily Mail is talking rubbish No surprises there of course!