Appealing against Permanent Exclusion

Yes admission it happens but I have also had the more well do to do parents come in if their child had a bad result then will blame all the other kids around them and will not listen.

The louder kids which are often travellers get picked up for things a lot more.

Then you get the kids of mothers some that are on here whose kids get away with loads because mum is down kicking up a fuss over nothing.

I think the type of teaching is not working at the moment it needsd to change do you really need to wear a tie and blazer to get a good edducation?

At least for a short while yet, until the new Education Act becomes law, the independant appeal panel does have the option of coming to a conclusion that whilst the school were incorrect in permanently excluding a pupil, that the level of breakdown of trust betweeen the school and parents is such that the pupil should not be returned to the school.
The problem in this case is that the available other school seems a very long way away and that the parents want the pupil re-instated in the current school. A difficult decison for the panel when they hear this appeal.

Hangon, I do agree with you, some IAP cases I have heard the level of evidence was completely overwhelming but the parents still seem unable to accept that their child is capable of such incidents. They simply are not living in the real world and are actually doing their child no favours by not accepting that there is an issue with their offspring.

was googling for an article I read recently that stated (I think) that travellers are more likely to excluded than other ethnic groups and found this - they might be able to give advice/help to the parents also

I really agree with you road art she would be better of in a different school.

However I have never taught a class where just one person can disrupt that much. I think you have to engage the child and find good in them. Lots of other teachers I know are not prepared to do this.

Some of the people that have posted are my worst nightmare as they will always think there child is perfect and will not listen they often blame another pupil which is not the case.

As cruel as it sounds, I would probably look at changing schools.

I can see this from both sides and both are hard to make a call

Disruptive children cause no end of problems for the rest of the class, disrupt education and means that other children dont get the one-one attention they need because all the attention is focussed on one child, all the time. The other children then become disallusioned and more children believe it is better to misbehave rather than study which escalates the problem.

If there are health reasons causing her disruption, these should be investigated and worked with, to help support the child, but there are many many children who have health issues, hearing problems, sight problems, etc who are not disruptive.

Once a child has got into the situation where the school feels they cant do any more, cant teach the child, cant help the child, then the best thing is to move on with new teachers new friends new environment. She will never change whilst in the same environment. There is presumably various triggers that cause her disruptive behaviour. Teachers can become very jaundiced about their views and react with their body language, so even if a child does behave, work hard, try their best, their previous reputation works against them.

Sometimes a new environment can help children, and I personally wouldnt want my children in a school where they are not wanted, helped, supported, guided, etc.

I just saw in a followup post the school isnt following protocol. I would take up this issue so that they dont ignore it in the future.

I think the trouble is her parents cannot read or write. Its hard enough to understand anyway, thats why its nice of Mctemp to get involved.

I think this thread proves how people are quick to judge and put the boot in. I expect there are a few teachers like this too.

cookcleanerchaufferetc -it's very difficult if you aren't familiar with the system.

I can understand why parents of hearing impaired children are offended at the implication that this explains bad behaviour.

HOWEVER, having a hearing impairment can make you vulnerable to other children who want to make your life difficult.

Other children do sometimes take pleasure in misinforming the hearing impaired child so that they get into trouble. I have also known of children hiding hearing aids from the hearing impaired child. This does seem to happen more in secondary school which could explain why she did well in her primary.

Have to agree there are some very nasty attitudes on this thread from one person in particular who appears not to have had the benefit of a proper education.

Clearly, the girl is no angel, that much I'm sure everyone can agree on. However, it does appear that the school has not followed correct proceedures and on that basis I think the OP is doing the right thing in supporting the girl and her family.

I hope the appeal is dealt with fairly and the right decision is made.

But at the end of the day the parents should be more proactive with their child and deal with the issues. Why? Because they are the parents, not the op.

Yes there are some nasty self rightious attitudes on this post and allthough it was wrong to break his nose, as I understand it the boy was trying to assault her in a sexual manner

The school is in the wrong for not following the rules on exclusion and I admire the OP for trying to help the girl.

As for the poster who says she would hang her heas in shame and crawl away if her child was excluded, I suggest she might have a very different attitude if it actually happenedIt's easy to make smug remarks when you haven't experienced a situation.

I think people did not read the OP properly. The school does not seemed to have followed rules so they are in the wrong.

Do not think we needed the unwanted opinons on the girl, the OP did not ask this.

some real nimbys on this thread with vile attitudes. The Lamb enquiry found that a massive proportion of children who are permanently excluded have SEN. About 70%, although they compromise less than 20% of the population.

Interestingly enough marriedinwhite, based on the independant appeal panels I have sat on (more than I care to remember) in the vast majority of cases the actual "sins" are not that often in dispute. It is usually the level of the "sin" that is in dispute and the action the school did or did not take that is at question. Which is exactly what we appear to have here from the posts from mctemp.
The panel have two main decisions to make. The first is whether the offences alleged did take place and the severity of them and the second is whether the offences as a whole, as it is persistent disruptive behaviour, justify permanent exclusion. within the later decision is what will be a key part of this appeal which is did the school do everything they could possibly do before making the decision to permanently exclude.

It seems to be that at the appeal McTemp will also get to hear the school's version of events which may be rather different to the version she has been given by the girl and her parents. I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall at that meeting.

Oh yes, I agree. If there is no alternative. But sometimes parents assume the 'good' school is the only option. The less good schools can be fantastic too but don't always have the reputation iyswim

Ormirian,

If it was as simple as moving to a wonderful school, who can cater for this child perhaps this conversation would not be on these boards. Personally I would not want my child to go a school where she is unwanted and spent the summer not knowing where she is going to be next September. However, we don't know the options available to these parents. Perhaps their only option is the local sink school. In which case imho one needs to be fair and explore how bad the behaviour really was and how the behaviour was managed by the school.

In our area a move between good schools is difficult as all have good schools have endless waiting lists. Also if you have just been kicked out of your current school, the next school may not be inclined to put you very high up on the waiting list.

Although I agree with what Phr47Bridge is saying, my oldest was bullied at school when she was in reception. We went through all the appropriate channels and got absolutely nowhere, at one point the HT even said we made it all up despite the bruises etc. One day DD turned around and smacked the bully in the mouth. She had to miss her playtime as a result of this but the girl left her alone ever since. ( this is now 5 years ago). When the school told me about this I made it clear to them that we had addressed the issue but that in my opinion it was their failure to resolve the matter which had resulted in the incident in the first place.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that one child should be allowed to disrupt the learning of other children. However, that doesn't mean that the school should be permanently excluding this child.

Permanent exclusion should be a last resort when all other possibilities for managing the pupil's behaviour have been exhausted. That is not what has happened here. On the information posted by McTemp this school has failed this girl in a number of ways including, it would seem, condoning sexual harrassment - not that I condone her actions in breaking her harrasser's nose but for the other pupil to go unpunished is, in my view, unacceptable. They have also failed to tell staff about this child's disability. This failure could have contributed to some of the problems, not least in that staff who were unaware of her disability may have misinterpreted her actions as disruptive when they were entirely innocent and caused by her inability to hear what the teacher was saying.

I am not saying this girl's actions were acceptable. They weren't. They needed to be dealt with. If the school had made proper efforts to deal with her behaviour and these had failed I would support the permanent exclusion of this child. However, it seems they have decided to throw this child on the scrapheap without bothering to do their job properly. That is not acceptable.

Well if the school is high-acheiving and has used the exclusion powers too soon and in a draconiam manner, perhaps she should go to a school that is less grades-orientated and more supportive of all types of children.

In no circumstances do I condone bad behaviour in schools or elsewhere for this matter.

However I do not wish to comment on whether this child should be booted out or not based on the information given in this post.

Is she really disruptive to the point where it effects other students or is she simply to much hard work for the school because of her additional needs and the effect her results may have on the schools rankings?

Sadly there are plenty of examples where children are made to move on because they don't fit the mould or are hard work and there are unruly children who get away with bad behaviour on the back of results, who their parents are etc...

In the event my kids were behaving badly at school, as a parent I would like the school to deal with unacceptable behaviour as I'm not there during the school day and can only speak to my children after the event. However, if they were put at the back of the class to just get on with it, I would not be amused and ask the school for an explanation however inconvenient that may be for them.

I'm sure I'm regarded as one of the nasty ones on this thread. However, can somebody who thinks this child should stay at the school please explain to me why one child (or a minority) should be allowed to disrupt the learning of other children and cause other physical and emotional distress at the same time preventing teachers from doing the job they are paid for which is to impart learning. 90% of a teacher's time should be spent teaching and encouraging learning and 10% on behaviour management. Never the other way round. Why do schools have to soldier on with children who are negative influences on the entire community. Why can't we create specialised units where such children can receive specialist help and the majority can concentrate on learning and developing socially in an environment that supports learning and achievement.

In all the years I have worked at schools I have never known an exclusion get overturned.

I have seen many cases where they decide the child does not fit in, when they decide this they will pick every tiny thing up that the child does wrong to get all their paperwork together.

The OP is very brave to stand up for this girl I hope it goes well . This thread proves how nasty people can be.

Is this a selective school?

I have heard of a similar situation but with a year 7 child. The girl had passed the eleven plus and therefore gained a place at the local grammar school. She was however classed as special educational needs and was disruptive in class. The school argued that they could not cater for the girl and that the other childrens' education was effected. The school wrote to the parents and advised that they wanted to arrange a managed transfer to a school that catered for the girls needs. The parents did not agree however the governors upheld the decision and the appeal was upheld as well.

One of the things to consider is would anyone want to be in a school where they are not wanted. If the parents feel strongly about their case and wish to proceed with an appeal fair enough, however sometimes it is perhaps better to start with a clean slate. Not knowing where the child is going to school in September is far from ideal.

Also is this school heavily oversubscribed, if this is the case and the place has already been allocated to someone else the panel is likely to take this in to consideration.

Crikey, there are some real charmers on this thread

Good luck op, and well done for standing up for this girl.