How can I persuade ds (12) that the little things matter?

With respect, the advice given was based on a lad who was described as:

grumpy, sensitive and selfish.

Most, if not all advice, said work with him but don't beat yourself up if it doesn't work because of this current temperament. If the temperament is not like that - as described in your latest post - then, of course, help - as you have done. I'm sure we all would.

Sorry, kez, didn't mean to sound as if I was getting at you

The trick is not to nag but to help them through the thought-process. You prompt them along the lines of "if you do/don't do this, what do you expect will happen next?" You help them to pose the questions so that they can think about the consequences.

I never said the going down a set shouldn't be followed up - I expressly said it should in my first sentence. This is something, I am sure, completely independent of the presentation issue.

It was the dealing with lack of presentation and the fact that 'the message isn't getting through'. Of course, as a parent, you help and mention it. You hope, if it matters, school is doing the same thing. However, during this period, if the message isn't getting through then it's not necessarily due to awkwardness (even though it seems like it is). So, if it were me, and I had mentioned it but got nowhere, no, I wouldn't bang my head against a brick wall going on about it (and getting nowhere) because, I suspect there will be far more important issues just around the corner that really will need facing without backing down.

"Apparently, the changes in the brain happening at this time later allow the young person think differently than they did as a child; more independantly, like an adult."

Thanks for the clarification, kez. I have heard about teenage brains changing and wondered if your understanding was the same as mine. The way I heard it was that teenagers' brains go through a growth spurt, similar in scale to the transition from baby to toddler. The brain literally changes, expands and makes new neural connections. Like muscles, the more exercise the connections get the better they are. Therefore a parent shouldn't passively sit back while the young person learns how to think differently but should help with the exercise. The main skill that they have to learn is that actions have consequences. Think about teenagers (especially boys): aren't they the most hare-brained, irresponsible, clueless, risk-taking things going. It's because they haven't yet made the neutral connections that associate cause & effect. Parents shouldn't sit back and let them work it out the hard way (through demotion down a set, detention, etc) but should help them.
Did you passively 'allow' your youngster to work out riding a bike by themselves, or did you help? It's the same concept.

My son is now 17 and we've had all this. He will do the minimum amount of work possible to get by! Presentation always a problem etc. However he has just finished sitting his Highers (we're in Scotland) and I was pleasantly surprised by the effort and amount of work he did. You could have knocked me over with a feather when he asked me to help him out with maths and English (boy is it a long time since I did Higher Maths!) - he's always told us he doesn't want any help! He has put more effort in because he can see there is an end to school in sight and he knows he needs those qualifications to get into uni. I think he'll always do the minimum to get by and we've just learned to live with this.

I guess I'm trying to say that it's just something you may need to ride out if you want to keep your sanity. It may be worth approaching the school with your concerns and letting them know the situation and saying that you are supportive and willing to help, but he has made it clear that he doesn't want that help. Then if he doesn't complete work and ends up with a punishment it will be down to him and the school will be aware of your concerns...

Our youngest has dyslexia and asperger's (can't write - uses laptop or a scribe) and struggles along without complaint - always does his absolute best and gets upset if he runs out of time to finish something! The contrast is unbelievable - but at least I know it's not our parenting style that has caused this - just different personalities and outlooks on life!!

Blue brain:

There was a TV programme on recently about our brains and how they work. They used colour to illustrate brain activity. Most of the time it was very active and very colourful.

When they showed a teenager going through puberty (and with that teenage attitude we all know and love!)they showed the colour of the brain and it was blue! Hence, me calling it blue brain behaviour. Apparantly, the changes in the brain happening at this time later allow the young person think differently than they did as a child; more independantly, like an adult. However, while going through that transition, the brain functions differently.

I wish I could remember the name of the programme. It was fascinating.

Can you explain the blue brain, kez?

Sorry, silly iPod! I would speak to school about slipping sets but don't believe for a minute it's due to presentation.

I would not stand over him or worry myself about the presentation, once you have mentioned it to him. It's for the school to advise and for him to take ownership of. I agree you noticed it and shouldn't ignore it - you didn't - but life will get much worse if you get involved too much.

He is going through blue brain (as we call it after that teenage brain programme on recently) and, with our daughter, the most we can ever do when she is in that zone, is recommend things and then step out of it completely. She's growing up and learning herself t be independent and that means taking responsibility for her own work.

I would speak to school about slipp

You and the teachers are worried about the state of his work. He isn't.
Is there something that he does worry about? If you purposefully mess that up then perhaps he will start to understand how annoying it is when someone doesn't come up to the required standard.
So, for example (and please excuse gender stereotyping), suppose he wants a clean shirt to go out in: you hand him a clean shirt but bundled into a creased, un-ironed ball. Put dinner on the table, but 'forget' salt'n'pepper or ketchup. You give him a lift into town but stop halfway. etc etc. He might eventually get the message.
I've always told mine that life is give and take: if they don't do what I ask then I won't do what they ask.

Are there some things that he could make sure he does with a piece of work that he / you could check, eg Tiltle using capitals, underlined. Date on RHS, etc - obviously based on what his school want.

Not sure about the homework at primary school helping. My son is in y3. He had the odd bit if homework in y1, one lot a week in y2 and 2 lots now. There is always screaming shouting and crying involved. It's he'll. I can't imagine 3 more years of this will make him like it more at secondary!

No help to the op sorry. Am just dreading the next 8 years really as homework will just take longer and longer.

DH is right.

You standing over him will not help at all.

Yes you want them to do well, but really he has to take some responsibility himself.

And yes, I am the parent of a 14 year old boy, so I do know what it is like.

This is one of the reasons I'm a supporter of small amount sof homework in primary school (something I know is unpopular here on MN).

Younger children who are still quite biddable get into good habits.

When year seven comes along tis just a seamless transition.

I would let DH take his turn

Oh dear - {{{}}} It's horrible being blamed for something that is so not your fault. And being shouted at when you haven't said / done anything wrong.

I presume he is in Y7? Is the level of homework much higher than in his Primary School?

Do let me know how you get on. I have this with DD (Y6). She has lost all interest in school work in the last year or so. She gets good reports but when we went into School for Open Day I was at some of the work other girls had done - from a presentation point of view. A story about pirates had been written in special hand writing on tea stained paper cut out into island shapes (ffs!) and parchments rolled up with ribbon. DD just scrawls stuff untidly in her workbook. I am sure a lot of it is the parents (I am not creative and tend towards the scruffy) but it must affect how the staff view the pupils. I am hoping that when she gets to Secondary School she will be excited by the new surroundings and the subjects and will up her game. But I also worry that she will be like me and just do the bare minumum to get by. Can we really change our children's predispositions?

My DS is 14 and we did have exactly this problem. I agree with mummytime to a point about not being able to stand over him forever, but maybe you need to for the first couple of times.

I looked at what DS had done on a history essay and told him that although what he had done was ok, there was plenty more that he could do. I didn't do the work for him by any means, but I looked at the info on the person he was writing about and suggested areas that he could expand on. Yes, there was moaning and stropping, but I asked him to try it my way, just this once and he did it.

A couple of weeks later, he got his essay mark- I think it was 18, or 19 out of 20 and his essay was displayed on the wall. The confidence boost was amazing and I was able to then say "See, it's worth the extra effort, isn't it?"

It hasn't been all plain sailing, but I look over all his essays and often point out that he's spent hours doing research and then hardly used any of it in the actual essay! If he moans now, i point out that it could be the difference between getting an ok mark, or a really good mark...

Good luck!

Schroeder there is a limit for how long you can force him to do his work. Why don't you try to talk to him about: why he does the minimum, what he thinks his teachers are really looking for, and his long term aims. You can even try a spot of bribery, for specific targets (either the amount he needs to write or a specific improvement on grades).
Try to help him evaluate his own work, his teachers should be able to provide criteria they use to assess work to help him.