How important is maths for the most competitive university subjects?

pete in the light of what you've said, I hardly think that my saying that I understood Cambridge to require Physics is scaremongering!

Interesting that you are now referring to cases of students with 12 As at GCSE and A predictions in Maths and Further Maths. People often use these single extreme cases as evidence of a wider reality which is very misleading. I could give much more reassuring factual evidence of students who have got in to read medicine at 'world class' schools with less in terms of grades but presumably more in terms of overall qualities, which is what the interviewers are looking for. I can certainly say that no student from our school who has 12 A's has been rejected in recent cycles from Oxford or Cambridge. Plenty with 11 As have been successful and a number of those with fewer A*'s than that also have very impressive offers.

I don't personally buy the argument that Maths demonstrates 'flair and depth of knowledge' to any greater extent than doing, say, History or French. I think a strong argument could be made that doing an entirely different non-scientific subject shows more 'flair and depth'. Especially since doing Physics without Maths is a tough call, as everyone knows.

I'm sorry that you seem offended by my enquiring about where your DS was headed for uni. There are several threads on the Further Ed page where MNetters discuss very openly which universities their DC's have firmed through UCAS so it didn't occur to me it would be an issue, especially since you've all but named his school on another thread. Anyhow, what would be really useful for parents of prospective applicants would be specific insight into specific departments on the basis of previous applicants experience. That would really help!

A little way up the thread you said that three sciences was the 'minimum requirement' for med schools.

That's not what I said Yellowstone. The following is precisely what I said:

Three sciences will suffice as it meets the minimum requirements of most, if not all medical schools in the UK.

I said that in direct response to what the OP told us about her DD when I first read her new thread:

"My daughter wants to apply to university to study medicine. She is studying 3 sciences and one essay subject but not maths."

So, what it simply means is that her daughter's 3 sciences is sufficient in meeting most UK medical schools' minimum requirements which in many cases is usually 2 sciences plus one other.

I then went on to give her as much advice as possible; to avoid possible pitfalls and emphasizing particularly the very tough competition from fellow applicants ahead, many of them would have 3 sciences plus Maths, not to mention wiser re-applicants and graduates who will all be competing with school-leavers like our children. I had refrained, for example, from telling OP that guys I know with 11 and even 12 very academically solid I/GCSE's As (100%) with predicted A Maths at A2 and Further Maths to boot, getting straight rejections from not any particularly great (imho) medical schools. Now perhaps you can say this is scare mongering, but is it really when I'm telling a fact?

Thank you for the congratulatory message. If you don't mind, I rather not tell on an open forum like this which medical school DS is going to this autumn because my identity will be quickly and easily revealed. Let's just say he's going to a prestigious world-class medical school here in the UK.

will not wil

pete here we go: 'Three sciences wil suffice as it meets the minimum requirements of most, if not all medical schools in the UK. But inevitably, all medical student hopefuls have the minimum requirements, so we're not just talking about the minimum requirements anymore'.

pete that is way more scaremongery than saying that I think that Cambridge may be the only med school that stipulates Physics. (Clearly it varies between colleges but I'm not sure DS1 is set on applying to Cambridge anyway so neither of us have got into the small print yet. Since he's taking Physics anyway, it's not actually a deal!).

pete science has its uses. I'm not sure that extrapolating from the Oxford statistics (which give 79% of applicants as offering maths) and making it a national rule would count as science. Those applying to Oxford for medicine are not likely to be typical medical applicants, they're bound to be at the upper end. One Oxford admissions tutor for medicine advised DS1 that Chemistry, Biology and Physice was his ideal scenario, that he wanted to interview and teach students who were genuinely excited by science. He said nothing of maths. That doesn't mean that he felt that maths is without a place.

A little way up the thread you said that three sciences was the 'minimum requirement' for med schools. How do you reconcile that with saying that anyone who asserts that Cambridge likes Physics is scaremongering?! (I think I said that I understood that to be the case anyhow and DS1 took Physics because he liked it anyhow and to keep his options open).

Congratulations to your DS anyhow for getting into his first choice of med school. Where did he choose? I'm trying to steer mine clear of Imperial because I read somewhere recently that rents are crazy, thousands a term. Nearly as scary as grades....

Well, I'm sure the point of a levels is to gain an education, learn different things that may help in the future, not just do what is needed to get into uni. Myself and some friends did 5 a-levels as we couldn't decide what to drop and just purely enjoyed studying different subjects, and so I personally don't get that it's all about what's needed to get into uni. The workload wasn't overpowering to stage of no extra- curricular activities and I totally agree that it's possible for a bright student to cope. University is definitely way more stressful and medicine has even more juggling with placements and studying and exams all going on! I have spoken to many admission staff over my time at uni and they definitely take into account things that may differentiate you from other students, be it extra activities, subjects, person you are. At the end of the day, they've got to choose somehow especially now when so many students come with very similar grades. It's not just about figures, the selection process does become subjective when at times there's very little to choose between each candidate.

darleneoconnor: Everyone I knew at medical school had A level maths and the 3 sciences.

I think she will be at a disadvantage without it tbh.

Same here, entirely agree with you about Maths at medical school, darlene. However, it?s got to be said not all 3 sciences are required. Chemistry (almost always compulsory in every medical school) plus one other science in addition to Maths will meet even Oxbridge?s minimum requirements for medicine. So, in theory you don?t even need to have Biology and less so, Physics and for anyone to come to Mumsnet to say Cambridge to insist on Physics is simply scare mongering:

Cambridge University - Medicine (A100) and Graduate Medicine (A101) entrance requirements and expectations

But of course, any serious medical student who hopes to have a fighting chance to gain a place at medical school will endeavour to have at least 2, if not all 3 sciences PLUS Maths to demonstrate flair and depth of knowledge. There are even a noticeable few who confidently offer five A2?s. Your child is not competing with the university, darkside, it?s these guys she'll be competing with.

There?s no necessity for me to engage in any scientific research in coming to a guesstimate figure of 80% of all medical student hopefuls offering Maths at A2. Just knowing your subject and what you?re talking about will suffice. Like I said, it was only my guess and if anyone still needs convincing then have a look near the bottom here - A-levels and equivalent qualifications - Statistics from the 2010 admissions round (for 2011 entry) at what Oxford?s got to say in their latest cycle of admissions to medical school.

DD, sorry OP.

I think the DC in question is doing four. The point is that her mum thinks maths is necessary so should her DS do it as an extra AS, above and beyond the A2s? My reply would be no, poor kid, she's either got it or she hasn't. There's a point at which all the double guessing and UCAS game playing becomes unwittingly cruel. I've currently got DD1 doing Finals, DD2 doing Prelims, DD3 doing A2s, DS1 doing AS and DS2 doing GCSEs. All under cloudless skies. Do what you need to but don't do more, unless you want to and unless it gives you satisfaction or pleasure. Waste of time and energy otherwise. IMHO.

Who knows? It might swing it for some. My point was that the DC in question could probably cope with four if they were headed for medicine.

Also Jonny I think I said that I'd balk at four A2 and an extra AS not balk at four A2 (though I'd prefer they did three).

OK jonnyfan so I'm going to get very MNetty here and say you have two DCs at Ox/Cam who took four and I have three at Ox (probably on a par with Cam) who took three. You're the maths teacher and I'm the SAHM: you tell me what those figures show (b**r all except possibly that the fourth isn't needed?).

Parent (DD oxford, took four A2 and 1 AS -inc Maths A2; she felt that the fourth subject might give her an edge over other similarly qualified candidates, DS Cambridge Medicine, four A2) also teacher (Maths)! It was not common at DCs school to take four A2 though, and many were successful for medicine without, but I think competition is getting tougher each year.

Jonnyfan the older sisters are reading Law, History, Law, not medicine. Though all at Oxford so quite high pressure. DS1 is doing four A2's but is the first in the family to do so. Though the best to date with exams and grades. Your experience is as a parent/ student/ medic? Genuinely interested to hear your perspective.

I would expect a prospective medic, facing that particular workload, to be able to cope with four A2 s.

darkside your DD's GCSEs will be looked at in the context of the high achieving school that she sat them at, so changing to a less highly achieving school would have no virtue at all and would very likely be a disservice to her in relation to her A levels.

I would honestly forget about the maths. I think you're overstating its importance in your mind by quite a long way. I'd also be very wary about guesstimates made on MN about 80% of all applicants for medicine taking maths to A2. I'm not sure how much science is behind that guesstimate. Our school is very high achieving too and has a very good success rate at getting students in to med school and it doesn't see maths as essential (I'm not sure it even views it as particularly desirable).

Your DD is presumably in Y12 atm? If she were mine, I'd be very unhappy seeing her do four A2's and another AS on top for no or little gain. DS1 will be my fourth to go through the system in five years, so I've got a pretty clear idea of what the workload/ UCAS process is like (and DD's 1, 2 and 3 only did three A2's, not four!).

I understood only Cambridge to insist on Physics. Three sciences are not required generally.

Birmingham are known for demanding a very high minimum level of A's at GCSE. In reality the top universities will have a large field of applicants all with that sort of number of A's and more, but there are also universities (those which carry out less research) looking for different attributes which offer places to students with lower scores.

The work experience thing is obviously an welcome attempt by universities to reassure candidates from less traditional backgrounds that glittering work placements won't seduce them. I think they'd all expect some level of experience to demonstrate interest, they're just saying that it doesn't need to be with the top consultant in the field.

DD is currently in her first year studying medicine. She did AS level maths which she got a B in, so dropped at A2. Her A2s were Biology, Chemistry and French. She says there is (at her medical school at least) absolutely no need to have maths - the highest level maths they do in the first year is apparently GCSE level statistics. Far better to make the 3rd subject one you enjoy, rather than taking maths and not doing so well, IMO. DD2 will (hopefully!) be starting her medicine degree next year too so I am all too aware of the fine details each medical school requires! And no, Yellowstone none of them stipulate maths.

Won't echo all the other fantastic advice, but I would add that though it can be difficult finding work experience, there is no 'requirement' to know doctors; we know absolutely no one in the health field but my DDs both managed some. To give you an idea of the sort of thing required: they did several days with GPs, a week in a hospital, volunteering at nursing homes and with disabled children, and a residential week on respite holidays for disable people. I think they must've rung at least 30 GP practices each, just to get 2 or 3 who'd take them, so it can be done.

WRT to dropping the essay subject, check what her preferred universities have to say about range of subjects offered. Some of them prefer the student to have an essay one as their 3rd or 4th, some don't, but their prospectus should tell you this. I think UCL is one that does, can't remember exactly though.

We?ve just emerged from this very stressful period of applying to medical schools culminating thankfully in early February when DS got the school of his choice. I would say:

1. Three sciences will suffice as it meets the minimum requirements of most, if not all medical schools in the UK. But inevitably, all medical student hopefuls have the minimum requirements, so we?re not talking about minimum requirements anymore.

2. Your DD is offering four subjects which is what (I guess) 80% of the cohort will be offering with at least the same percentage (perhaps more) offering Maths and/or Further Maths as part of the combination.

3. Rule of Thumb: Your DD is competing with a particular set of applicants in a particular school for a particular intake and different schools look for different qualities in an applicant.

4. Don?t ever ignore the medical school entrance tests, the BMAT and UKCAT, depending on which school(s) you're applying. Avoid putting all your eggs in one basket!

5. BMAT universities look at the applicant?s BMAT scores in the first instance in their selection process.

6. UKCAT universities (click drop-down window on top right) can be more flexible, i.e. good number of I/GCSE A*s can make up for a slightly below par UKCAT score and vice versa.

7. But increasingly, more and more UKCAT universities are adopting a cut-off level to select interviewees ? again applicants are competing against each other here. An average score of over 700 (out of 900) in the first 3 sections is desirable to feel comfortable. Sheffield's cut-off level this year (I think) is 685.

8. Average number of I/GCSE As of medical student hopefuls are around 8. For example, this year Birmingham would not call any applicant with less than 8 As for interview.

9. But PLEASE remember, it does not necessarily mean anyone with less than 8 GCSE A*s will not enter medical school. All the schools will tell you they look at an applicant?s complete application, i.e. personal statement, school reference, GCSE?s, AS-levels, predicted A-levels, extra curricular activities, work experience, etc.

10. And finally, for all you young budding doctors who have come this far, please keep on the right side of the law as a police check will be made on you before final clearance is given. [In fact, you?ll have to declare convictions (if any) in your UCAS application.]

stipulate, not stipualate.

Can anyone explain why maths would be thought to be critical? Chemistry I understand. I understand too that in a buyer's market, grades at GCSE (and AS) are key. But maths?

Increasingly it also seems that top universities are sending out the message that sparkly work experience at big name hospitals or even regional hospitals isn't necessary. They seem to be saying that work experience is clearly more easily gained by those with connections and that they don't wish to disadvantage those without such connections but who may yet have more innate potential.

I'd have thought OP's DD would be best advised to do four AS subjects which really interest her and at which she can get the best grades she is capable of and then enthuse about at interview. Provided that one is Chemistry (and one is Physics I think too if she is going for Cambridge).

Does any med school actually stipualate maths? (genuine question, but I'd be surprised if it did).

I agree with tortu, though I'm not sure it is entirely easier for a science grad to get into medical school compared to applying as an undergrad. Currently there seems to be a flood of graduates trying to get onto further post- grad study and medicine seems to be one of those courses! I know a student who is on a first class for a biological degree from Oxford and has been to numerous interviews and has had rejection after rejection only to FINALLY have an offer. ( though not sure if he got onto a fast-track or had to go for a full 5 yr one)

Another thought is some medical degrees offer top students with an elective 3 rd year where after your 2nd yr of medicine you can choose to do your 3rd year in research And at the end of 3rd year,graduate with a bmedsci degree, before continuing with the final 3 yrs of medicine. This has been very popular. Additionally, many doctors do change and decide to do research after a medical degree which IMO is equally valuable. This also gives the option that if you find medicine isn't suitable, some do leave with a degree after 3rd yr.

I think there are many options out there however if your daughter is really dedicated to medicine, that will shine through and overrun the need to study maths. Alternatively, Would she be able to pick up the maths without dropping the essay subject? And see how it goes?

Hello. As a sixth form tutor (I've spent longer on those sodding UCAS forms than they have!), the first question I always ask when confronted with a child wanting to study medicine, is why? Is it just because they can't really think of any other options? It is, despite the difficult grades, an 'easy' route in that students understand it will give them job security for life and that they will 'be' something, rather than just somebody with a degree.

Some points:

1. No, Maths is not a requirement, though it's always useful
2. Medicine is a beast of a course to get students onto. Your child WILL need as much experience as possible, so arrange Work Experience.
3. Get them doing as much as possible now, so that they have loads to write about on their UCAS form. This is crucial, and how well-written they are also seem to be a major factor.
4. The school she goes to is an issue as far as the grades go and Universities will expect her to get higher grades if she's been to a high-achieving school. In contrast, none of my students (I've got three who've been accepted this year) will get anywhere near top grades, but then they are from an exceptionally deprived area. Two were asylum-seekers (those application forms make interesting reading! One kid proudly included information about his family having to flee because of their failed assassination attempt on a dictator we're currently trying to get out of power- thanks UCL for taking him!) and one has been through the care system.
5. There are always back-up plans for Medicine. Firstly, if you're not absolutely convinced that this is their dream career (and how do you know at 17 anyway?), let them know that a science degree leads to great things. Loads of options. Also, several universities in the UK offer 'fast track' Medicine courses for people who already have degrees- and the grade requirements on these are lower than for first time degrees. You can start on these courses and complete them faster than an ordinary Medical degree. Can't remember which universities, but Swansea is one.

Good luck.

From friends experience all but one took a level maths. Medicine is very competitive and without it is a disadvantage, I even had one friend who got 11 a* gcse, lots of extra curricular activities to incredibly high standards, top grades at a level with additional As further maths and still found it really difficult to get into medicine despite having loads of medicine work experience. She did get into her first choice medical school in the end but still got rejections from other unis as well, showing the high standards to get into a good one.
On the other hand I have a friend who did not achieve many a*, and didn't have maths and is at ucl studying medicine. ( her mums a gp though so she got loads of work exp)
I think the work exp beforehand seems as important, to at least show dedication and literally everyone know studying medicine did some pre-uni application.though it's difficult to find unless you know doctors!