How important is maths for the most competitive university subjects?

JUst to add something else to the mix ladies. Having a full house or not isnt the only important thing. If you look at a year group in any medschool, you will find not only high acheivers academically, but lots of grade 8 piano players, black belts in karate, people representing england in sports etc. Most people have an extra thing, a superpower :) a person who doesnt is rare.
10 A*s at one sitting and HCA experience just isnt enough.

pete I'm not hoping to go to medical school. You're pretty rude!

pete, you asked!: DD1 got 10 A's in one stitting at the end of Y11, DD2 got 11A's in one sitting at the end of Y10, DD3 got 11 A's in one sitting at the end of Y10, DS1 got 12 A's in on sitting at the end of Y10. No modules were taken, all linear. They are in good company at their school. None are at the top of their cohort in terms of achievement except arguably DS1 who at least shares that place with others. His 100% score in nine out of ten AS papers certainly managed to p*ss off his sisters, who regard him as a bit of a joke (he does it with no apparent effort; I think there is something wrong). DS1 is by no means complacent about getting a place, he knows there's far more to it than grades.

I think I read in the paper after last year's GCSE results that 23 pupils at South Hampstead High got 11A*s, though that's from memory.

You said a couple of days ago on another thread that your DS was at possibly the greatest school in the world and was a scholar there, so I'm surprised that you're surprised at results like these. I bet all the good London day schools and top grammars produce similar results year on year and I'd have thought your own DS's school would be bound to do so if it's world beating as you say.

Our HT said that 10/ 11 A*'s puts a student in the top 2%. I didn't say that the top 2% apply to medical school, I'm sure applicants are much more scattered across the spectrum than that. I would expect that most of those top 2% do apply to the top universities though, which is why I said they wouldn't regard those results as unusual, for them.

In the past four UCAS cycles a significant number of the DCs' friends have gone to medical schools with grades similar to this but also with lower grades. All pretty set on that career though, that I would say and clearly showed their aptitude at interview which your 12 A* student friend seems not to have done.

"I think I was the one who said that being in the top 2% on raw grades won't get you a place without the other qualities schools are looking for. pete was the one who seemed surprised."

I'm not sure how you're hoping to go to med school with such a short memory at best and being so negligent at worst to have missed my Golden Rule No: 9.

9) But PLEASE remember, it does not necessarily mean anyone with less than 8 GCSE A*s will not enter medical school. All the schools will tell you they look at an applicant?s complete application, i.e. personal statement, school reference, GCSE?s, AS-levels, predicted A-levels, extra curricular activities, work experience, etc.

"I think quite a few med applicants get 'full houses'. They aren't that rare at top schools."

Yellowstone, a pupil sitting 8 GCSE subjects and gets 8 A-stars scores a ?full house? in this context. Likewise, a pupil sitting 10 subjects and scores 10 A-stars achieves a ?full house?. But a pupil who sits 12 subjects and scores 11 A-stars and 1 ?A? does not score a ?full house? in this argument. I leave you to decide who is the best student of the three. Of course, I?m assuming all these exams are taken within the 2-year period finishing at the end of Year 11.

So you reckon quite a few med applicants get 'full houses' and a large number of your chlldren?s friends including your eldest four, have ?full houses?. Yes, maybe they do. But in how many subjects, that?s what I'm interested to know.

Don?t know about your eldest four (maybe you can tell us), but I would suggest a very large majority of med applicants do not get a ?full house? for 11 or 12 subjects which is the original number of (GCSE) subjects I first talked about. And I am referring to med applicants here who are supposed to be the ?top 2%? according to you, and that large number of your children's friends who have them must be the super elite of the country flying even higher than the nation?s prospective medics. Well done to them!

Main thing I meant med is that if you've got 12 A*'s you should walk it, but you may not!

I'm getting quite a lot of stick from another poster for no obvious reason, so I wanted to be clear!

yellow apologies if i am repeating what you have already said. I havent read the whole thread, and only came on here to tell a poster that she is posting a lot of stuff about her dd.
The criminal convictions thing was new to me, so i posted about it, but i guess it isnt news to others.

medstudent I think I was the one who said that being in the top 2% on raw grades won't get you a place without the other qualities schools are looking for. pete was the one who seemed surprised.

Sorry, but the point about criminal convictions is pretty crass. Applies to a lot of professions. Hardly news.

Grimma clearly clever students can do Chemistry and Physics 'properly' without Maths (at least DD1 did AS Physics w/o Maths (A), DD2 did AS Chemistry without Maths (A) and DS1 is doing Physics and Chemistry without Maths and has scored 100% in every single AS paper). I haven't a clue how they do it but clearly if they can do it lots of others can too. I'm not sciency myself, it's all a blur.

I'm trying to think back to my A levels... can you really do Chemistry and Physics properly without Maths alongside nowadays?

Tortu there is no job security out there for medics. The recent scandal whereby last years graduates didnt get F1 jobs goes to show that. Five years of studying and working and building up massive debts. Getting the grades, showing you are capable, graduating, etc. But without an F1 job, you cant get registration as a doctor.

Thats actually pretty bad for society generally. It costs about a quarter of a million pounds to train a medstudent through five years of medical school. If at the end of it you dont give them a job so they can complete their registration, then thats an awful lot of money wasted. 180 graduates with no jobs might not sound like much in another subject but in medicine that is 45 million pounds wasted. All because someone didnt plan things properly.

Its also pretty bad for the students concerned.

Just want to add to what pete said earlier.

even a caution from the police is a bad bad thing. If you are a prospective medstudent you need to be so mega squeaky clean, its unbelievable. Being top 2% of the population academically just isnt enough.

Medusa, do you know that you are putting up a great deal of information up about your dd? You may not mind it, but she might not like her colleagues knowing this much about her.

Obviously you're very proud of her, but in future, just say medschool, dont identify her school and placement.

I got into medicine with the IB many moons ago, and got 3 offers (doing Physical Science, Biology and Maths HLs, but the maths was a low mark). My friend did Physics Chemistry Maths and Biology A levels, but interviewed poorly and only got one offer. Personally I would say the 3 sciences and the essay subject make her an ideal candidate for medicine at most Universities, although maybe Oxford (where I missed a place by one) or Cambridge may feel differently. Doctors should be articulate (although I'm not sure my psoting is this morning) and the essay subject would demonstrate that.

The volunteer work that I have found the most helpful in my medical career was working for a children's charity providing respite care for disabled children. The insight you get into the lives of the families was invaluable. Also I would recommend looking at volunteer work with the elderly in some capacity. It really doesn't have to be GP or hospital based experience as far as the application form is concerned. Work experience in clinical environments is more about making sure the OP's dd has enough of an understanding of medicine to be sure she wants to do it!

My DH is about 10 years ahead of your DCs, he was part of the interview panel for a medical school this year (not saying which one). He says the most important things are:

• Does the applicant really want to do medicine?

-Once they know the applicant is clever (but not necessarily exceptionally so) the main thing is 'would I be comfortable with this person caring for my sick child/mother/spouse' etc It's a qualitative trait not a quantitative one.

-SO get as much work exp as possible, preferably the 'messy' and non glamorous kind, old peoples homes for those with dementia are great. As are homeless shelters.

-Make sure your DCs do their homework, some medical schools like 3 sciences/maths other prefer a subject which shows breadth. We have Dr/student medic friends who have offered between them music, geography, politics and English as a 3rd subject. Only apply to medical schools which like your combo!

-DH did Biology, Chemistry and Sociology for A levels 10 years ago. He still got into one of the best medical schools in the country.

Please please don't be the mother who rings demanding to know why her DC didn't get an offer/interview. Apparently surprisingly a lot of mothers do this...

Tortu, your post made me well up, (blames pregnancy hormones) I am so glad your students got offers.

If they're stalkers/ interested!

If you cherish your anonimity here and wouldn't want a journo/neighbour/DC's frind's Mum or teacher reading all your posts in the full knowledge of who you are...be very careful not to out yourself.

You'd be surprised how people put two and two together.

pete I said rare cases are often used misleadingly to demonstrate a wider reality, so it's good to clarify that they are rare.

I think quite a few med applicants get 'full houses'. They aren't that rare at top schools. Nationally I believe that it's the top 2% so the top universities will come across 'full houses' all the time, given the audience which targets them. A large number of my children's friends have them (and my own eldest four too as it happens). If some of the many applicants with these grades don't impress the interviewer and fall short in terms of other qualities, obviously they won't get a place. Of course interviewers are looking for different things because the med schools are different themselves and have differing aims. What I think I said was that interviewers are looking for the winning combination of overall qualities in a candidate, whatever those may be for a particular school.

darkside if you don't mind me hijacking slightly, could anyone who has been through the process distinguish the different characteristics of the London departments: that would be really helpful. And what marks out the various regional medical schools too?

. . she is doing 4 A levels, 3 science and one essay subject.

Tell us darkside if you feel comfortable, what subject is this "essay subject" your DD is taking in addition to the 3 sciences.

People often use these single extreme cases as evidence of a wider reality which is very misleading.

The ?wider reality? you?re talking about Yellowstone, includes cases such as those I reported. It may be rare but that?s because it is rare for anyone to achieve a 100% (full house) 11 or 12 GCSE A*s.

There are of course, rare success stories from the opposite end too with people getting offers with 5 or 6 GCSE As. I did emphasize earlier that it?s not all doom and gloom for people with less than 8 As. I felt it was important for prospective medicine applicants to know as fully as possible the reality out there before taking the plunge. It is believed at least 60% of all medicine applicants will get ALL FOUR rejections in any given cycle. UCAS recognise this reality and that?s why one can only apply to 4 medical schools leaving the 5th choice as a fall back to another course other than medicine. Many die-hard medics leave the 5th choice blank though.

?I could give much more reassuring factual evidence of students who have got in to read medicine at 'world class' schools with less in terms of grades but presumably more in terms of overall qualities, which is what the interviewers are looking for.?

Do not assume all interviewers at all medical schools are looking for the same attributes in a candidate. This thinking is very naive. Fact: Boy I know last year got rejected by Birmingham but snapped up by Cambridge. I can give many other odd ball examples but this is not doing the OP any good.

?I'm sorry that you seem offended by my enquiring about where your DS was headed for uni.?

No, it?s not an issue at all and I?m not offended; if anything, I?m extremely proud of DS who has achieved so much over the years as any parent would be. It?s just that I don?t feel like divulging any more unnecessary personal information on an open forum on the worldwide web. Any other tips I have for prospective medicine applicants, I have already given.

Thanks, she is more clued up than me. Just seems with the new fees that it's best to get in straight away rather than doing more years at Uni, but worth thinking about doing chemistry rather than giving up the dream.

The majority of medical schools ask for predicted grades of AAA at A2 adamschic but some are still asking for AAB so I would advise looking at the website of each of them to find out. You can find a list of every school by going on UCAS course search. At AS that would mean As too, in the subjects she's continuing to A2. If she doesn't get the grades she could do a similar degree, eg biomedical sciences or medical biochemistry, and try for graduate medicine later... however apparently the graduate courses are even more competitve than undergraduate. Or take a gap year, resit some exams and reapply next year. There are quite a few books on this sort of thing out there, if there is a careers library at her school they should have some, or your local library.

Mine is doing Maths to AS level, she only got a B at GCSE so a good AS grade might redeem her. Also Chemistry, Biology and History to A2 next year fingers crossed she will make the grade but it's not looking great as A2 January results were terrible and are being resat this week.

She comes from a state school with unremarkable A level results, what's the minium she can apply with and what to do if she doesn't get the grades? Sorry to hijack.