How important is maths for the most competitive university subjects?

Although I do not know yellowstone I know the school and the numbers of students getting a full house are probably correct. There is a family fitting this sort of description.

The early GSCEs come with a price. Students chose their A levels a year early and when they are ready to chose a university may find they have not made the right choices. Some students are then tutored outside school as they hastily study another subject. There is a culture that suggests a B grade is a failure. I do not know if the drinking, drug-taking and eating disorders are any higher than other schools.

The school certainly suits some students but not all. Yellowstone has children who have done very well there and is perhaps blind to its faults but she is not lying about the exam results. Now to change my nickname back.

No, not at all (and we love boasting about them, so thanks for giving me the opportunity. Ha ha!). No they didn't. Their grades will be much lower and we have predicted this accordingly (and they are doing the IB so have not got any results from last year). We were extremely well advised by both Oxford and Cambridge who both came round and told us that any students from our area would be looked upon favourably. Although none of our students actually applied there, this did spur us on to phoning other Universities and finding out that this would be the case there too. Whilst I think that our students are very unusual, I can see that there is a fairly widespread attempt to help disadvantaged students- which I think is really to the credit of this country's educational system. And the pay-off for the universities is, of course, that our three students will do much better than probably most of their peers as they really will have got there against the odds.

1. One of the asylum-seeking students has no GCSEs, though English is actually her eighth language and she only started learning it a couple of years ago. So she is being let in to study Medicine with neither maths or English GCSE (though she sat the exams, so they can tell she's brilliant)! She is predicted the highest grades of the three and may actually do better (I teach her English- she's pretty impressive. We now all think that we under-predicted).
2. Our 'looked-after student' was the most interesting. The universities were leaping over themselves to offer him a place. He has a choice of offers (both lower then written in the UCAS booklet) and he's also got a pretty impressive bursary from the local council- there are social workers there who will weep with joy.
3. Our most 'normal' of the three is the 'assassination attempt' student who has been in the UK since he was 11. He is quite ballsy and just wrote a really, really juicy UCAS application. I suspect there are several university departments who passed it round for a good laugh- and, miraculously, he got an offer. Personally, I'm not sure he'll make it (he seems to think that, having got the offer, he doesn't have to do any work), so we'll wait and see!

If in doubt, get your school to phone the universities, as we found them all really helpful and positive (though am sure we're single-handedly fulfilling some sort of quota for them).

Tortu, did your students who got places have the correct predicted grades and AS results? Hope you don't mind me asking this.

Adamschic:

Oh please tell your child to apply! Just look at my little ones (though quite scared for them now. They won't have met anybody who's got more than one A* at GCSE). They have got in mainly, I think, because their applications were so unusual and because the universities genuinely do take the child's background into account. Couldn't be bothered to read most of the discussion on this thread, but by the sounds of it applicants in some schools should be considered odd and underachieving if they don't get 5 As at A-level and Grade 8 in a couple of instruments. To be honest, mine are considered exceptional for having stayed on at sixth form.

Postcode is definitely a factor (when I spoke to one of the admissions tutors at Oxford, she said that an application from the school's postcode would guarantee an interview, irrespective of grades. I repeated this to our students, who just looked confused and muttered something about not knowing where Oxford was. Naturally none of them applied), but so is the school. If it is not a high-achieving school and your child is doing well, this is, rightly, a better reflection of your child than one who gets straight A* in a school where this is the norm.

Jonny I'm at risk of being a bore on MN about this because a tutor asked me the same on another thread.... but essentially the Sixth Form is a three year one with the idea of more depth and breadth and more time for extra curricular stuff.

You're right that DD3 was one of the top 12 achievers numerically but it's always pretty clear in any year group which are the stars; she would be the first to say she's not one of those, there are a handful of outrageously brilliant pupils, she's downstream from them.

Also, if DD3 got 11 A* and no one got more, is she not at the top?? Just asking.

Yellow, I'm intrigued; what do the pupils do in year 11/12/13? Do they all go to University under age? I have never heard of wholesale GCSE taking in year 10.

pete I know exactly what exam results my DC's have got and I've got their certificates to prove it! Very, very odd indeed accusing me of being a liar ( If you believe that, you?ll believe anything ).

Let?s not all get too emotional and start plucking figures from thin air. OK, I'll indulge your natural scepticism: I've dug out DD3's Speech Day booklet for 2008, which lists 12 pupils achieving 11 As and 8 pupils achieving 10 As. These pupils were all in Y10, and in that year group no-one took 12. The cohort was 117 pupils.

St Paul's Girls' School might have a claim to be 'top school'; it scored 84% As at GCSE in 2010 (not A/A - that was 99%). You like facts and figures, you work out how many got a 'full house'. And I still recall the newspaper item which said South Hampstead High got 23 students with 11 A*s. None of your statistics actually show very much in terms of 'full houses'.

This thing about 'greatest school' is a nonsense. I'm happy with my DC's school, that's enough for me. It does the 'whole person' thing too. I believe part of being a 'whole person' is to be aware that however clever you are there are lots and lots of other clever people out there too.

Your posts are frankly appalling :o

Jonny I didn't say the 'norm'. They're at the upper end just not at the top (with the DS1 caveat). All the pupils take all their exams in Y10 (after a normal 2 yr course but starting in Y9).

"You said a couple of days ago on another thread that your DS was at possibly the greatest school in the world and was a scholar there, so I'm surprised that you're surprised at results like these. I bet all the good London day schools and top grammars produce similar results year on year and I'd have thought your own DS's school would be bound to do so if it's world beating as you say."

Yellowstone the ?greatest school in the world? is a pretty subjective matter. My DD thinks her GS was the greatest in the world and who am I to disagree with her? When my DS says his is the greatest in the world, I will have to agree in order to maintain family peace. But seriously, there are quite a few folks out there, especially from overseas, who think DS is right. Maybe these ignorant foreigners know of no other British schools except this one?

In any case, it depends on what one?s definition of ?greatest? is. To me, it doesn?t necessarily mean achieving the best academic results or how many GCSE/AS/A2 ?full houses? or Oxbridge successes the school has. If that?s what I was looking for, then I would have sent DS to one of the 2 top grammar schools in the nation that had offered him a place whilst still being underage. No, I was looking for a school that educates the whole person - in mind, body and soul which this school does best including guiding him to ?full houses? 12 As IGCSE/GCSE?s; 5 ?A?s at AS-level; and since January, 1 A for Maths (100%) at A2 with the rest to follow next month. Needless to say, he's got all the other 'usual suspects' too like Grade 7 piano, guitar (no grading), football, rugby (which public school doesn't play this game?) rowing, the CCF . . . this is what I mean educating the whole person.

Quote Jonnyfan - Yellow; "none are at the top of their cohort.." with 10/11 A* at the end of year TEN!!! Are you serious? What sort of super-school is that?

If you believe that, you?ll believe anything. This is what I said in an earlier post about average medical school hopefuls and GCSE A*s in general:

. . . and that large number of your children's friends who have them must be the super elite of the country flying even higher than the nation?s prospective medics.

Jonnyfan: I'm amazed that 11 A is the norm in year 10! Mine went to a very selective private school and were only allowed 10 subjects, and DD was the only one to get all 10 A, and that was in year 11. I'm talking top school in a large city, outperforming local state and other private schools.

That seems more like the real world to me.

Let?s not all get too emotional and start plucking figures from thin air. As a natural sceptic, I?m more interested in seeing facts and figures. One talks of top grammar schools that produce pupils gaining 11 or more As in Y10 as their second nature. Maybe I live in another world but to me, these facts and figures tell me which are the nation?s top grammar schools - 4 of the top 7 are in my neck of the woods from which both my DC have had offers to at least two of them (appropriate gender) but only my DD took up one school. I know a lot of kids [and their parents] who go to these schools and most of them DO NOT have a ?full house? 11 or 12 As at the end of Y11. Nine or ten ?A-stars? plus one/two/three ?A?s are ?fairly common?.

And now let?s have a closer analysis of the nation?s ?very top school? according to the league table to see if all their girls gain 11 A*s. Well, no actual earth-shattering figures given so the prognosis doesn?t sound very promising.

I'm amazed that 11 A is the norm in year 10! Mine went to a very selective private school and were only allowed 10 subjects, and DD was the only one to get all 10 A, and that was in year 11. I'm talking top school in a large city, outperforming local state and other private schools.

Yellow, we are being realistic, but despairing that social mobility is being suppressed and how boring life would be if everything stayed the same.

adamschic the system for stateschoolers is extremely unfair. Such a lottery, geographically. If your DD had a go at our school it sounds like she'd fly. I hope she applies and gets snapped up and life levels out.

Jonnyfan I assure you that really, none are the top of their cohort. I'm serious. It's a grammar. DS1 may be, tied, but he's got a recessive gene or something I think.

Yellow; "none are at the top of their cohort.." with 10/11 A* at the end of year TEN!!! Are you serious? What sort of super-school is that?

Yes, it is because it's exam time. GCSE grades were good, not full house, admittedly, but as good as it gets in the school. It's by far a sink comp but AS grades have been low all round, some are repeating this year and having private tuition to get good grades. Most Jan modules have been retaken as well as this round, so very gloomy.

Very impressed with your DC's achievements btw.

adamschic is she/ they extra gloomy because it's exam time again? It must be worth applying in the next cycle, surely? Her school background should count for a lot: of course an A from that sort of school counts for more, quite a bit more.

UCAS is providing 'close contextual data' (I think it's called) for 2012 applicants, so if my understanding of it is right, her achievement will be set in the context of the school's abysmal track record. And haven't you said that she should get fairly significant financial help? She won't get a place if she doesn't apply.

On my eldest's course there's a wide variation in GCSE grades which reflects the wide variation in schools. Not much difference in ability, just in grades and schools.

I do think that achieving the required grades from a bog standard comp is something special nowadays. Mine has decided there is no way she will get the grades to apply so has ditched the idea. The teaching and track record in her 6th form is abysmal. Who knows what the future holds and I'm doing my damnest to convince her that despite racking up at least 9grand in debt per year it is worth her doing some kind of degree, hopefully a science based one which might keep options open to do medicine in the future.

Hopefully the fee issue will be sorted out one day and put us back to an inclusive higher education system.

The vibes I'm getting from the current year 12's is that it's not worth going to uni because of the fees so many are dropping out of A levels and going into college to learn a trade. I'm talking about ordinary students who's parents couldn't afford an expensive education. Some of the ones dropping out are bright too, it's a scandal. Will be interesting to see what the knock on effect will be for the uni's.

Yellow, i didnt read the other thread, so dont know about the exhaustive discussion on it.

med this stuff about extra curriculars has been discussed fairly exhaustively on another recent thread and several tutors have given their views. The general thrust of which (translated) was that playing polo brilliantly won't of itself mean that you've the potential to become a brilliant doctor.

I'd love to know how an ordinary kid gets free music lessons, transport to lessons and an instrument. And a polo pony too. Some kids also need to work at weekends to generate money which may limit their free time for polo and flute.

I'm not completely sure of your point. Grades are a good starting point in a competitive field and I don't think anyone here has said it's grades and only grades which count. Clearly it isn't.

sorry, one last point. they may be incidental, but if you have ten people with equally high grades in everything else, and one is a grade 8 piano, then that is the one that will be chosen. not for the piano as such, but because he acheived it whilst maintaining the grades. iyswim

Yellow, the people who are going to shine, will shine whatever school or financial background they come from.
a colleague went to a self described rough school, but used his older sisters notes to study, she had gotten into a selective grammar (or scholorship at private, not sure) and he got a place at medschool
another one went to a bogstandard comp(her description) yet plays polo competitively
AND five percent of these very same high acheivers are going to be kicked out or asked to repeat the year. so yes, getting your ten A*s is only the beginning. and having parents pay out for music lessons isnt necessary.

Too many that's.

But I hope the medical schools bear in mind that not all potential great medics come from a background which can afford music lessons to Grade 8 etc. or sometimes even the time to foster these talents.

Agree completely med, these high achievers tend to achieve highly in all sorts of fields. Though isn't the thinking that at the top universities that these extra talents are incidental rather than a reason for an offer? But then that's back to the 'how far are extra curriculars relevant to a uni offer' debate.

Anyhow, always salutary for students aiming for competitive subjects to be aware of the competition and never to be complacent, whatever their talents and grades.