Getting into a north London private school at secondary

Horsemadmom - perhaps you should also mention on here about private school kids intimidating teachers and reducing them to tears because they think they're so superior.

Now THAT's polite behaviour isn't it..?

Trying not to step into a row - it is wrong to assume that all children at prep school are dim. Entry into these schools is competitive and all bright children do stand a chance. there are a lot of bright children, and there will be more applicants than places. All candidates, from whatever school, need a back up plan.

The current confounder for London day school entry is that children who might otherwise have been destined to board/flexi-board outside London are applying for day schools as their parents, whilst staying in the independent sector, are not feeling so confident about paying higher boarding fees. It's going to be a bit tougher competition for the next couple of years.

That said, go for it. Find out what the exam is like and engage a tutor if you think the school will not cover the necessary exam prep - with reasoning type papers you can only coach so far, but you child will have an unnecessary disadvantage if they are unfamiliar with what a paper is likely to look at. You can use test papers (Bond etc), and plot progress - it will rise as DD gets familiar with the type of question and then settle, that plateau is where further coaching achieves little/nothing.

Devonshire House is great but in my opinion NBH is amaizng. All kids love it and are extremely happy. What is your local primary?

G+T is gifted and talented (you may need one of the other kind...or 6!). Devonshire House does not have a great track record at 4+. Girls leave at 11 and boys at 13. King Alfred's is not academic. It is laid back, full of celebs and very trendy.
Many private schools have coaches. Worth getting the routes now if you want to move. I couldn't manage 3 kids at 3 schools without them.

Yes, you're in a different area to us, we fall into the "beyond" category, hence your kids schools were never on our radar, plus I wanted my DDs to go to my old school (managed the first 2, fingers crossed for DD3 for 2012!).

I hope that we're feeding the poster some useful info!

I don't have anywhere near those sort of distances though. Mine are all juniors still, and I agree a lot of parents are and will remain super sheltered. The thing is, there are a lot of areas where public transport is non-existant, so parents become taxis even in senior. Lucky for us we have a bus stop with 2 routes less than 5 mins walk and the tube station only 15 mins walk, so they'll be sorted when they get to senior!

Hi Stikmatix!
My NLCS DD has friends around the corner and 1 1/2 hours away. They all live within a 45 min. radius of the school which seems to be the tolerance point. The CLSG DD has friends in Chelsea, Islington and Hampstead. UCS DS has mostly local friends.

When they get to senior school, you don't drive them around except at night. They don't want to be seen with you. This is different if you live in the 'burbs. In my experience, the Harrow and beyond crowd have much more sheltered kids. One mum was horrified when my 12 year old pitched up at Brent Cross having taken the bus to meet her DD who she wouldn't leave alone until the girls hooked up. Even then, she sat in Starbucks until they were ready to leave. Insisted on phoning me to make sure it was ok!

Some of the schools group the children in the early years by geography to encourage local friendships. Frankly though, they are so tired at the end of the day (much longer in private schools) that week day playdates are a bad idea.

excuse typos. I am not a high achiever myself, obv

Not true. Especially for HB and QE Boys (know these schools well).

You may need to tutor your children, though. But only do it if they are very bright and high achieveing anyway. These schools can spot the 'tutored to within an inch of their lives' kids a mile off.

horsemad has very useful comments at usual!

If you're considering private all the way through, then there are many excellent through schools (could save you the hassle of changing later on).

I don't find that the friends are too far away (of course there will always be the at least a couple of classmates who really do live far away), but for us most are not too bad distance wise.

horsemad - how are you finding the distances of friends for your DC at their school(s)?

BandB- you don't know me, my politics or my views on meritocracy. Keep on topic or go troll elsewhere.

Littletinkers, Twins complicate things. Boys? Girls? Both?
Local friends are important and convenient. Most of the preps are grouped around Hampstead with a smattering in Mill Hill and Harrow. School run is also a factor. Maybe you need to tell us what your local primaries are- MNs might know them and can offer an opinion and more specific info. Not all preps are equal. Some go to 7+, 8+, 11+ or CE. Some are laid back, some very academic.
Ofsteds are a bit of a joke as they can fail a school for a hole in a fence and rate one excellent that would turn your hair white because it does well with a very disadvantaged intake. G+T provision must be a factor if you are looking at those senior schools. A local primary that doesn't serve the needs of it's brightest pupils is going to make your job harder. Also bear in mind, most academic preps do not do KS1 tests as they are working well beyond it. It won't be a fair comparison.

hmm - re the dim comment, I suspect that what our viewpoints boil down to - and why we shall never see eye to eye! is that you are fundamentally a social elitist, I am an academic one.

Whilst you pillory my 'politics' happily, you seem wilfully blind to your own politics.

hmm - the OP wanted to know about whether you could get into good selective schools from state primaries or not - my experience is categoricaly that you can; my dd has just followed my lead and will be going to a grammar in Sept too, from a perfectly average state primary. I fail to see how this is irrelevant to the OP.

The OP's post is seeking advice on the best way to get into competitive academic secondary schools - the way it is phrased suggests she'd like to save money and not go via prep schools but isn't sure if that is possible. Rather than the one-sided view you'd like to present, it is actually perfectly possible. Indeed, paid-for tutoring is not required, assuming the parent has the level of intelligence of a bright 11 year old (not too hard) and some time to spare (I tutored my dd myself).

A number of my dd's friends got in from her not-especially-academic state primary. It is perfectly doable.

There are many perfectly valid reasons to send your kid private -eg smaller class sizes, better facilities etc - but the theory that by so doing you are buying your child a guaranteed place at a selective school that they couldn't get via state primaries is just plain wrong.

Also, I think you need to seriously ask yourself whether a child pushed beyond their natural ability into a selective secondary will be happy there and whether it is the right place for them.

To provide some real experience, both my dcs got into selective London schools from a very average state primary. Both had a tutor beginning in Year 5 (definitely not earlier than this). One is pretty bright and was offered one of the very selective London grammars. The other is at a selective independent, considered to be pretty academic. It's definitely more possible than you are often led to believe and you do not need to be at a private prep to be successful. You do need to tutor for 6 months to a year though. I can't see any difference between the prep and state school kids at my dcs' schools by the way.

I think you all have valid points, but getting back to the OP. From what I gather from my friends in private secondary schools, the cleverest kids in the class initially are the ones who've been to private preps, then it evens out into a mix of ones who'd been to private and state. However, the ones who are struggling are ones who'd been to private schools. That is in no way saying that private school kids are 'dim', just that they may have found their way into a selective school that they wouldn't have unless they'd had a prep with small class sizes etc.
What I always thought was appealing about going to a private primary (I'm in North London) was that you could subcontract out the worry about 11+. But what freaks me out is that parents at these schools seem to be even more neurotic than I am. They all have coaching on top of going private (even at y1 and 2 while I'm not even contemplating it).
I suspect that these selective schools want the most academic kids and are probably quite good at working out who they are and calibrating for school background.

Dear BandB,
I think you are making a generalisation that children who are sent to prep schools must be 'dim' and those who go to state primaries and get into good private secondaries are 'bright'. If you actually read what I, and others, posted without your spin on it, nothing was derogatory or offensive.Put down your political cudgels, please.
Littletinkers asked a question and this topic has ended up it the mire of your making. Why did you respond as 'you are glad your kids are going state all the way'? You haven't got any helpful experience or first hand knowledge of this issue. I certainly wouldn't comment on a topic where someone was concerned about admissions or transfer to a comp because I don't have anything to say. I most definitely wouldn't trash someone else's choices.
Does anyone with real experience from both sectors have anything substantive to add? Can we Mumsnetter help this parent with actual info? Anyone have a DC who has done it? What were the benefits and disadvantages of each option?

I used dim as the shorthand opposite for the shorthand 'bright' used in the OP.

Feel free to substitute your own politically correct and soothing alternative, as you wish.

I meant 'kids who are not very 'bright'' academically - does that clarify things? What would you like me to call them? Or would you prefer that we all inhabit a polite fiction where all children are academically equal? Not terribly helpful when discussing selective schools, as they (whether you think this is sad or positive depends on your views towards selective schools, I suppose) do not inhabit this fictive universe.

Incidentally, I did NOT start it, OliPolly - my 'feral' comment was in response to hmm's comment that I reposted a couple of posts back, and which I think was extremely offensive, as I stated.

FGS bread - you came in with the with the feral savages comment

Perhaps you should also clarify your 'dim' comment?

Wordfactory is right about the rule on MN about all this. How narrow minded can one be?

I found horsemadmom's original post, quoted here, deeply patronising and offensive, personally:

" The standards (work, behaviour etc.) will not be a shock to prep kids. However, One of DD's BFs came from a crap primary and found that the senior school was really patient and helpful as she got used to what was expected- correct uniform, completing assignments on time and up to standard, polite behaviour to teachers, revision timetabling and organisation. "

The implication that kids from state schools have worse behaviour (eg rudeness to teachers being normal, apparently)
and are unused to completing assignments on time, lack organisational skills etc etc is based on no evidence at all and entirely contrary to my and my dcs' experience of state schools.

I can only assume that she has no knowkledge of state schools and this is based on watching Grange Hill or something.

As I have stated elsewhere, i think how well a child does at school has a lot more to do with home environment - parents who encourage and nurture their children will have children who do well at school, whether private or state.

I should also add that I came top in the entrance exam for HBS in English with no tutoring at all and FROM A STATE SCHOOL. Shock horror. I had a family who read a lot with high expectations and lots of books. That's all.

And no, we didn't stand up for teachers at HBS and no, I had no problems with 'organisation' either, thank you very much. Nor was I rude to the teachers.

I find horsemadmom's posts insufferably smug. Maybe that's what private schools do for you? Glad my kids are going state all the way...

donnie the rule for MNet is that if children are from wealthy backgrounds and attend private school you can be as rude and dismissive of them as you like

You can call then dim, thick, living in a bubble. You can say they all struggle at A level and get kicked out of university (though there is no evidence of this whatsover.
You can say they are spoonfed and that 'I wouldn't want my children to mix with them.'

Tis the MN law.

Thanks for the defence.
It never fails to amaze me how people read snobbery into everything.

Just to point up that ONLY ONE child out of all three of my children's classmates at three different schools failed to settle. All the others, no matter where they went to primary are doing fine.
BTW, UCS much more relaxed than the others on your list. Very scruffy.

interesting thread. When did it become ok for less academically able children to be referred to as 'dim'?