How bright do DCs need to be to get into Grammar school?

As has been pointed out, it's really completely impossible to generalise about "grammar schools".

There are basically two different types of grammar school system in the UK. The first is in Kent and Bucks, where there is a selective system run through most of the county as a whole. In Kent that means the top 25% of kids go to grammar, so you don't have to be spactacularly bright to get in.

The second is in places where there are just one or two grammars left within what is basically a comprehensive system. Example are Tiffins in Surrey, or places like Latymer around the outskirts of London. These are much more competitive, taking only a tiny percentage of each year's cohort, and subject to massive intensive tutoring culture.

You can't possibly generalise about the two situations, they are very different.

I would never move near to somewhere like Tiffin in order to send a kid there - even if they were very bright, it's always subject to what happens on the day and you just can't know. But if you have a kid that is clearly doing well in school and in the top few of the class, you should be pretty safe just moving to a generally selective area.

Agree completely, I really wish we'd moved somewhere else at times! The more I get to know the system, the more I hate it.

OP - the 'guidance' we had was that if your dc has a reading and spelling age at minimum 2 years ahead of chronological plus predicted high level 5 SATs for the end of Yr 6 they'll be fine at grammar.

Weblette,
no hassle. I think the people of Aldershot would LOVE to have RAF high command types rather than bucket loads of low aspiration squaddie kids who move en masse every two years.

The main thing is that every child being schooled out of taxpayer funds should have equal opportunities
and Grammar schools do not fit with that.

Talkinpeace I was just trying to make the point that there is some forces activity here, I don't profess any knowledge of the types of service involved.

Weblette - if you really think that RAF High Command is anything like Aldershot, Blandford or Bulford, Buckinghamshire is even more rarified than I thought it was!

Have a look at the populations of Aylesbury, High Wycombe and Chesham and you might find it's not as monocultural as you think Jajas. As for forces, RAF High Command is just outside Wycombe, RAF Halton is near Wendover.

Don't get me wrong, I really dislike the system having just been through it and think it is utterly biased against lower income families - the figures on how many children receiving free school meals get to grammar school are atrocious.

The upper schools where I live do have an extremely mixed intake but also get very respectable GCSE and NVQ results. Personally I'd prefer to have good comps for everyone.

We're in Bucks and bought here without even knowing there was a grammar system. OUr ds is at one of the top grammars in Bucks on that table, and passed the 11plus without any tutoring, but he did practice papers at home.

He's not a genius, but is bright. As an example, he reads stuff like The Invisible Man, Catcher in the Rye, The Grapes of Wrath for pleasure, and will analyse them with me. It's that sort of enquiring, analytical brightness, not necessarily being able to work out Fermat's last theorum, that will do well at Grammar imo.

There are several places around London with excellent Comps, eg St Georges in Harpenden, Waldegrave Twickenham (not Country!!) Dame Alice Owen, Herts, Gordons Woking, You just need to live in the catchment then and hope the school doesnt change too much!!

mattellie

Comparing Buckinghamshire with the national average is not really appropriate.
What is the level of English as a Second Language, immigration churn - both within the UK (Forces schools) and from outside it ?
As parental economics are the best indicator of academic outcomes, the fact that ANY Buckinghamshire secondaries are below the National Average is shocking.

The figures that TalkinPeace posts are interesting. In actual fact the stats for Bucks show that the GCSE numbers for upper schools aren't much below the national average, which given that the top 25-30% are creamed off by the grammars looks pretty good to me.

One other factor to bear in mind is that in Bucks we have both single sex and mixed sex grammar schools so you can go down the grammar school route even if you favour mixed education.

lot less stressed.

dd1 was in top sets for her first couple of years at school, we moved to a new area when she was in year 2 and her new school was more academic. She was then in the bottom sets for everything, by year 3 the school were talking about her having an IEP as her written English and spelling was so poor. In years 4 & 5 her teachers were great and understood her (shy) she blossomed and was gradually moved up into the middle or top groups.

In year 6 she got 5A's in all her SATs, passed her 11+ and is now in a grammar school. If you'd told me that when she was in year 3 I wouldn't have believed you. They change so much educationally that I don't think you can put too much weight on how they're doing in the earlier years of primary school.

DS is in year 3 and about to have an IEP for his written English just like his eldest sister did. This time I feel a whole lot stressed about it because I know that everything can change over the next few years.

You know what they say - only move into a grammar area if you're happy with the secondary modern that you would get if they don't go to the grammar. Most of the secondary moderns (high schools) round here select by distance, so you have to live less than a mile away.

We chose where to live before we'd even thought of having a child. So by luck we ended up in the catchment of a good comprehensive in an area where grammars had been done away with, but with an excellent grammar with residual places available up the road.

So if DD had turned out less bright she'd have been able to go to the comp; as it was she was able to go to the grammar (which suits her character). But it wasn't at all obvious till she was in yr 5 that this would be the case.

The guideline we were given was that the children likely to get GS places would be achieving level 5 SATs by the end of year 5 - this seems to have been accurate for our area.

Judy,
Your school is unusual for Kent then, as the league table is pretty damning of the gap between selective and non selective in Kent...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/10/html/bacc_886.stm?compare=

We live in Kent and so did have the choice. My DS1 in Y11 now did not take the 11+ as we were not completely confident he would pass and at that time if he did not pass he would not have been able to go to our choice of secondary school as you had to put them first on the list. He faltered during the first two years of secondary (typical boy, mucked around) but has now got himself together and is doing well, always moving up the sets, never down.

My DD in Y9 did not want to go to a girls only school. She is doing very well (at least as well as any grammar school child).

My DS2 in Y7 is also doing very well. We did think about him taking the 11+, but tbh he didn't want to put in the work of practice papers (would not have gone down the tutor route).

From our secondary school that takes all levels of ability, two children have gone to Oxbridge this year. At least one has gone every year over the past 5 or 6. In fact last year's A level results were better than most of the local grammar schools'. Considering that this school takes everybody, I think that is fantastic and a child will do just as well at a good secondary as at a grammar, but they will have to push themselves harder. I think at a grammar the pupils are much more spoonfed.

I'm not going anywhere - if we are very, very lucky the mortgage will be paid off then and I can spend it all in Vivienne Westwood - sod their education! :)

Seriously though and back to the Op - my view is that your best move is to look at the areas that have good state comprehensives.

It will be 5 years time I'm afraid!

:)

Dp keeps saying he wants to move, CaptainNancy!

You also have to remember that some superbroght people do not take off in academic terms until secondary school- DH failed 11+, yet got 4As and a B at A level, 1st class Maths degree, and masters. He couldn't read until aged 8 or 9.

In our authority only 5% of children get into grammar school (in reality it's fewer than that as there are many applicants from over the LA boundaries applying). There are 20 applicants per place.

I wouldn't base a house purchase on a possibility - and remember a very good school now may not be so in 10 years time. I suspect we will buy BGs house move 2 years before the eldest is to transfer.