The John Fisher School, Purley

I hope PWB isn't Monty. As I said before, there is a place for faith schools but they shouldn't abuse their selection process. My DH is not catholic and it is my role to ensure that they attend mass and take the sacraments. They are just as catholic as any other child that has two practicing parents. I would love to believe that you're wrong Monty about not being accepted due to you being divorced but fear not. PWB appears to be condoning the 'old' form of selection which is unfair and not at all christian.

Yes Angel I think that's probably exactly what PWB means, we weren't accepted because we were considered to be 'bad apples'. :(

We fitted all other criteria.

It's also worth mentioning...during the 1990's selection policy the JFA (the charitable body which does lots of JF's funding) provided a number of scholarships and travel bursaries for children from lower-income families living many miles from the school.

I knew a family who's boy travelled all the way from the outskirts of Tonbridge (Kent) into Purley; maybe a door to door journey of 1hr 45minutes, he was given a bursary for travel.

The John Fisher Association (JFA) continues to do lots of good work for the school.

John Fisher is not such a middle-class bastion as a lot of you seem to assume.
When Fisher was an Independent (Public School) it actually educated a number of it's boys for free!

Look AngelEyes, the reason Fisher used to be nicknamed 'Catholic Grammar' and known as the best catholic boys school in Surrey was because it was highly selective and results consistently high.

I think we are naieve to think JF would have simply given up its reputation at the end of the selection policy.

Most of the boys who are currently studying at John Fisher come from middle-class backgrounds; some are even sent there as an alternative to Whitgift and Epsom College. This was most certainly the case during the early-late 1990's when the selection policy was still in effect.

I am not saying divorce is a class thing; that would be ridiculous, I am merely saying most boys come from stable, middle-high income homes.

Oh dear pwb - i think your comment could put the cat among the pigeons! Are you saying that Monty's family is a bad apple as that's the very reason her ds did not get in due to her being a single mother. I totally agree with faith schools (although I know a lot of mnetrs don't) but I can't condone selection based on family circumstances. JF was wrong to not admit her ds due to her not being married and they weren't the only school to do this either. Coloma asked for marriage certificate but the bible stated that divorce can be allowed.

AngelEyes what I'm agreeing is with John Fisher interviewing and examining candidates so as to weed out the bad apples.

Hi Angel, I don't think Thomas More's is ever undersubscribed though (if its the same one I'm thinking of).

Dd was very happy at her girl only rc secondary school (and then went to non rc 6th form), ds hated every minute at St J's. He's now at non rc 6th form and happy.

Hth :)

That's a shame Monty that you/your dcs were not happy. It wouldn't be allowed now about taking your marital status into account. St Jo's is in the main catholic selective although they do admit 10% on academic ability. Thomas More ask for RC but if under subscribed will take those that are not. I don't know if i agree with PWB (as I'm not sure if she's agreeing with selection through faith). Maybe St Jo's has got it right (partially) in that there should be a percentage of non-catholic DCs admitted. I don't think that should be through academic ability though but maybe distance?

St Joseph's is catholic selective, or was when I did the secondary school stuff. I thought Thomas More is/was too.

And to be honest, I brought my dc's up in a catholic religion because it was my upbringing (not in this country) and it was what I chose for them too (intending for them to chose their own paths in life when they were ready), I did not know the minefield that was the education system in this country. Boy was I shocked. But luckily I fitted the criteria based on 'catholicity' but for John Fisher, sadly not on marital status (by that stage).

Friends of ours who sent their boy to Whitgift and girl to Worth complain all the time about the Fisher selection policy; it wasn't right, but basically ensured 700 Catholic boys were exclusively educated along selective lines for free.

If you look at the 1998 intake there were nearly 8 applications for every place, more than independents and grammars. And who can blame the school for it's really stringent points-system thesedays? It's the only way for John Fisher to remain an exclusive Catholic school without selecting its boys.

Or should we turn it into a bog standard comprehensive like St Joseph's (Beulah Hill) or Thomas More?

PWB

Monty, Angel, thanks. JF would be a risky option due to delayed baptism, as I said, although we had various reasons to delay which may or may not be enough to move us to the top category. But most of his friends will go there. Moving to Langleys catchment would be a more ?certain? option, and it appeals to me as they seem to have quite supportive SEN division (JF have very low SEN). DS1 is not SEN but I he seems on the edge of ?normal? and perhaps he could benefit from SEN support. He is at the RC primary with very low SEN number and coping more or less OK. If we move to Langley catchment, we would have to swap our house for a flat, but I can accept that compromise.

Confused - I have just remembered my friend's dd is currently at Langley Boys - she came from a RC secondary (it's not Monty's DD though - my friend only has one DD). The reason she went to Langley was because she wanted to do law and the secondary she was at didn't do it. She is really happy there although she did do very well in her GCSE's.

Confused Langley Boys is brilliant. The catchment is tight, so check it as it gets tighter and tighter it's so highly in demand, and of course you pay a penalty for housing for that reason. Dd who is a couple of years older than ds, after a RC secondary school where she did really well at gcse level, but wanted a change.... yyyyy boys 6th form etc, I trusted her judgement, she went to Langley Boys for 6th form and did well and is now at Uni. She thoroughly enjoyed it too. I've never come across one of her friends that I didn't think was wonderful. But St J's? Nooooooo. Don't do it. But then I was single and working full time and he probably didn't have the support that a 'functional' family could have afforded iyswim.

JF wouldn't be able to do that now (as all other secondary RC schools). Thomas more's progress was the best this year in Croydon and the head and SLT are very stable. Is Langley Park's main criteria distance and do you need to live very close to the school?

Thanks for sharing Monty27. St Joseph on paper does not look that bad, but if you say bullying.. then not good at all! Our option 1 is to move nearer JF (Wallington or Purley) and hope to get in (our DS1 was baptized at 14 months so not top criteria), while back-up would have to be Thomas More. Option 2 is move nearer Langley boys (Bromley) and forget about catholic secondary education. Hearing all those things about JF refusing single parents makes me very cross. But half of my DS?s primary tends to go to JF, so I cannot ignore that, too.

He went to St J's. I wouldn't recommend it. Lots of bullying and teachers aren't communicative. Well, he was very unhappy there anyway and didn't do brilliantly. Have you looked at it? If you get a chance for JF take it, definitely.

Monty27, sorry to hear that! If it wasn't my DC education on stake, I would say this is very unfair and I would never choose a school like that.
Can I ask where your DS went in the end? And why St Joseph's is a no-no?

Had church attendance, within easy commute etc, (2008 intake, just the year after the interview process). Very close to parish priest etc, had been for about 15 years at that point..... the downfall, ds dad had an affair and left us when ds was less than 2 yo. We were turned down because of the divorce. I challenged it so they put ds on 2nd of the waiting list. He never got in...

Oh, and don't ever go for St Joseph's on Beulah Hill. Just saying.

There can be all kinds of reasons for not baptising a baby within a few weeks of birth and it is very possible that there were acceptable reasons. They can't discuss someone else's private life with you and you will only get their backs up by telling them you know details you really shouldn't know about this child.

whilst I wont be sending my DC to a faith school I would suggest church attendance over several years would be a much fairer system. I know many parents go to church just for the school but it but its a lot harder to fake years of attendance than a quick baptism.

What should be used though? The church schools take their admission policies from the code of canon law and canon 867 states:
"Parents are obliged to see that their infants are baptised within the first few weeks. As soon as possible after the birth, indeed even before it, they are to approach the parish priest to ask for the sacrament for their child, and to be themselves duly prepared for it"

I agree that it can be very unfair for people that for various reasons did not get their dc baptised 'early' enough but I'm not sure what criteria should be used!

Is it not ridiculous to base entry into a school on when they were baptized? I know it goes on in religious schools but it seems so wrong.

I'd rather go through the points-system and complex admissions than the selection policy.

As a middle-class mother my son was fortunate enough to attend Catholic prep and in hindsight the selection policy was unfair; my sons got in but it was wrong.

There can be very valid reasons as to why a baptism is late and it is in the governors interest to read every singly application and adjust where necessary. I feel for you marsbar as i am sure your reasons were real and in that way it is subjective. There is flexibility in baptism date (I know a number of boys that were baptised after a year and are currently at JF). Mars - are you happy with your current secondary school?