The John Fisher School, Purley

Good Lord!

If anybody is a hypocrite its you -misscorkingdale- for 'owning up' to all this is some bizarre mea culpa.

Parents who could afford fees for Indies at the time were (OF COURSE!) on the look out for good state schools, run along selective lines as it meant free edcuation for DDs and DSs!

You are living in a fantasy world if you think parents of Fisher boys at the time were not looking for the Indies alongside state alternatives.

I will admit not wanting to send my grandson to Fisher is hypocritical; as my only motivation for not doing so is to do with the loss of exclusivety the school has suffered to its reputation since the end of selection.

PWB

ercroydonmum,

I can't believe what I am reading! Can't you see the hypocrisy in what you are saying?

My husband and I took advantage of Coloma and John Fisher in the 1990's when we could just as easily have sent (at least in my DS's case) my boy to RGS Guildford or any number of Independent schools. The selection policy was very attractive for us as a means to avoid paying huge fees and yet give our kids a good chance of winning a place at a good uni.

I hold my hands up and admit what we did was opportunistic, but I defy anyone on here to say they would not do the same.

So for you to then complain about John Fisher (back then) because you had to spend 60 grand in fees at Worth is the height of hypocrisy. Did you not think that you were denying somebody's kid from getting a good education when you could afford the fees for any number of schools?

And what a surprise that you PWB, Ladymuck and the others won't send your kids to JF now that it no longer operates selection?

The hypocrisy is staggering.

PENELOPE,

just seen your posts on another page in regards to JF.

FYI plenty of DS's friends passed the JF interview and tests in 1993, but he didn't. Fact was John Fisher was so selective and oversubscribed that it made Croydon school admissions a headache for everybody, especially parents like me and DS's father who shelled out nearly 30 grand in fees at Laleham Lea to get him into Fisher at that time. Unsuccessfully! [fanger]

You had clever boys who had a chance at getting into one of the Grammars in Sutton, North London or Bromley whos parents were forced to choose between JF and say Wilsons, moreover JF which was a very small school of 600/700 boys until 2000 was taking only a fraction of its boys from Purley and Croydon, many more were coming from Surrey and Sussex prep-schools so parents and boys from outside Croydon were benefiting from a great, selective Catholic education at the expense of Croydonians like us!

Would like to add that we can't blame Laleham Lea for our failure to get a place at JF, he ended up at Worth and came back to JF for 6th form and is doing very well for himself. LL is meant to be a great school and alongside Fisher interview prep and mock tests, it prepares boys and girls well for 11+ and Common Entrance.

Not bitter honest!

Penelope - most of those selection criteria are illegal nowadays, so I would say things have changed a lot. (No interviews, no exams except 11+ for Grammar or banding tests, equal preference system etc. etc.)
The admissions criteria is given in this web page which also includes an example of why they might on the judgement of the governors treat a child baptised after 1 year of age as the equivalent of one baptised before 1 year.

Yeah I can see where we are all getting a little confused here and I really have not helped matters!!!

Basically, John Fisher was one of England's most selective Catholic schools for 8/9 years in the 1990's/2000's whereby it only accepted boys for music places, a small number of academic places and the vast majority on religious places (your boy had to take a religion test and both parents and boy were interviewed regarding their interests, commitment to the school, ethos, homework etc). You could only apply to John Fisher as your first choice and not any Sutton Grammars. Only 100 or so boys were admitted each year to John Fisher having passed a) an entrance interview b) a religion or aptitude test and c) had written applications and previous school reports reviewed anc check with the head of your prep or primary school. John Fisher was hugely oversubscribed and because of the selection tools, families from 10-20 miles out could and would apply for places at John Fisher.

Now I think the conversation we are having today is about a very different school, less elitist, more inclusive, less academic perhaps?

Everything Ladymuck has said is ringing true with those contacts I still have in Purley and Wallington who are tending to send their boys to Whitgift over John Fisher as they miss the selection policy and see less middle (and sorry about this) posh families with boys at the school.

They'll possibly be cagey, but they should have the data. If not then you can visit the Sutton Council offices and see the maps that they have used for each year, which should should the initial allocation of places, and then subsequent allocations (eg if people opted for private schools).

Thanks Angel. The distance I am talking about is 5 miles. I know that 4.5 miles got in. JF travel policy mentions Bromley and further counties, but it was written in 2007. I am not so worried about late baptism because we had many serious reasons and I should be able to prove it. I am trying to satisfy a wolf and a sheep and move into Langley catchment but possibly have a chance for JF too. My boy has not visited yet. Both schools are different but good. I think I will just ring JF tomorrow and ask instead of agonising on MN!!

I know there were boys who got in from Addiscombe. I also know boys who live in Dulwich and Esher who didn't get in. I don't know if you are able to work out your distance in comparison to these areas. My friend is a governor there and works on the admission panel. They follow the criteria very closely and look at valid reasons as to why baptism was late. I know I've said in other posts about late baptism and the governors are very sympathetic. I know a boy in my boys' year who was late due to waiting for family to come over from New Zealand - he was only 14 days over the year though. I also know another boy (currently in year 7) who was over the allotted time due to his mum being ill. I'm not sure what you should do re: langley boys or JF. What do you feel is best for your DS? What type of feeling did you get when visiting?

Does anyone knows any recent boys admitted to JF from Bromley borough or Croydon/Bromley border? I am trying to work out my chances...

My children are in selective schools, and one of them commutes to a school in another county by train, so I'm hardly anti-selection or even pro-"attending the nearest school". I'm merely pointing out that the JF admission policy (which does seem to change frequently!) is not how you may remember it. It is a comprehensive Catholic single sex school, still in high demand. However it is in the same London borough as 3 very high performing boys grammar schools with entirely selective intakes (from all over the country), so there is no great surprise in that it loses some of the very brightest RC boys to those schools. John Fisher has been fully comprehensive for the last 12 or more years. Other than on the rugby field I'm not sure that it has been seen as an alternative to Whitgift or Trinity for some time.

Schools with a point based system generate more hoops for parents to jump through and therefore potentially are choosing those families who persist in hoop jumping. Have a look at Coloma's old policy for comparison.

LadyMuck,

May I ask why you are so in favour of a less stringent London Oratory and John Fisher? Why you objected to these Catholic schools recruiting boys from all over the country? And finally for the selection policies and interview processes?

And presumably you were against boys who joined these schools in the 1990's/2000's based on musical or academic aptitude also?

Is it any wonder that Croydon has so much negativity surrounding it's educational insitutions, when we want to reduce outstanding schools like John Fisher and Coloma to the likes of the bog standard comps?

Monty this could go on and on :) I do understand your frustration.
I need an advice. I presume I can prove to JF the reasons for late DS's baptism and get him into JF - great, as majority of his primary classmates will go there.
But DS has sort of Aspergers traits (undiagnosed), I feel he is a bit struggling with social side of things -putting aside religious aspect, perhaps Langleys for Boys with their Autistic Spectrum Unit would be better?
I need to finally decide which side of Croydon to move too.

Yes PWB and me and my dc's were genuine catholics

What was I going to do with a dh who slept with someone else? Stay with him?

John Fisher isn't seen as elitist in its policy, given how close it is to the Sutton grammars who do select on the basis of 11+ exams, and are in far more demand. You're either Catholic enough to get in, or you're not, but that is the criteria these days: thankfully not a points system, but simply a question of when the child is baptised, and how frequently the family attends mass. One of the local CofE comps does operate a points system including points for whether the child attends alone, or points for significant parental involvement in church etc.

sorry I meant to say ''now that it operates a points system''

PWB

All,

I am not playing with anybody! And yes of course BME & low-income are not the same thing.

I am making a number of observations; a) the school is one of the best Catholic schools in London and Surrey in spite of ending its selection policy, b) John Fisher is very elitist (still) now that it operates a selection policy and finally c) the school still seems to be an alternative to Croydon and Surrey Indies (whitgift and royal russell).

This forum has a flavour of anti-selection sentiment. That I have picked up on.

I thinks PWB is playing with us - she cannot believe what she is writing. I believe she is looking for a reaction!

You do know that 'black and ethnic minority' and 'lower income' are not the same thing.

Hi AngelEyes,

Yes the school is much more inclusive now; I think something like 15% of the school's students are now black or other ethnic minorities-it accepts boys from lower income homes. It is obviously completely non-selective these days (since 1999/2000).

My boy left in the early 2000's as the first boys were coming in that were not selected.

I have lots of friends from the early-late 1990's and maintain some links with the school; I must say I am impressed that since the end of the selection policy the school seems to be doing very well indeed.

Thanks Confused and Angel, it really wasn't my fault that he went off the rails. Still he did, and I divorced him.

It still stays with those schools though, and I am not envious of people who have that perfect life that I thought our family had and would always have. I still break my heart about it. But exh' ds has suffered for it... (not so much as dd for some reason, just different gender/personalities etc).

Sorry not a pity party, just pointing out how wrong it was and is. We'll get there.

Good luck and hope you all get the best for you and your dc's.

avoid St.J's like the plague though :)

And I don't think you're a bad apple either Monty. I don't know if that's true re: JF's students Confused - they are very varied. What they do have is a very strict code of conduct and still that 'grammar' school feeling. All boys have to play rugby for example - we have to sign up for that on the onset and participate as a parent. Thomas More has done unbelievably well these last couple of years - I think it's a school to look out for. But, understandably, noone wants their dcs to be the guinea pigs in the interim. PWB's - I think your ds may have left full time education now as the school is quite different from what you are describing.

Monty, I do no think you are "bad apples" but I understand where Catholics come from. Divorce is not allowed. You better be married to a cheating atheist, but married. I don't think is right.
I think that the current JF admission policy is fair on paper but it still doesn't get to me how they manage to get students mostly from affluent families, and Thomas More gets students from the same areas but not affluent - it is a mystery to me!

Angel, it was exactly that. Rules changed and they sent me out further forms saying they had had to changed their selection criteria (can't remember the beauractratic stuff the form said at the time, they had been pulled or something) so I filled it in, was assured we were on the waiting list... I phoned shortly after, my ds was 2nd on the waiting list as the school was full by then of course. He never got in. It was his downfall in life at the time.

He's ok ish now at a non rc 6th form, following the nightmare that was St. J's. God I was working full time and head spinning, wish I could have done more for him. But... we're just bad apples eh?