English Bac

Xenia, thank you so much for your posts on this subject/thread. I have sometimes been questioned about my choice of school for my DD - the school was in Special Measures at one point - but your posts can be used to combat any doubt about the kind of person and the kind of values that my DD needed to be protected from.

Quite apart from your literacy skills
"fot eh 1940s traditional subjects employers adn" your attitude to children is disgusting. I am a teacher and I have never met a 'thick' child. I have met demoralised, disadvantaged children, children with emotional needs or mental health issues, vulnerable, frightened children, children coping with tragedies that were beyond the scope of my imagination, children with abusive, toxic parents, children with specific learning difficulties, and children who were, well, teenagers, or who had become disengaged in an education system which allows no flexibility for the variety of experiences and maturity and growth that human beings experience.

The world must be a very frightening place for you. What a shame your 'wise career choices' and traditional education have not educated you in tolerance and humanity.

I really don't see what the point is in perpetuating this story that some state school pupils are not being given poor advice about which subjects to choose.

My niece is very bright and wants to go to university. The school has encouraged her to pick 3 A levels, 2 of which are on that list of subjects considered unsuitable for university entrance. My niece keeps going on about how she is going to get into a good university and then walk into a job in the media.

I cannot say anything to her about it, because I don't want to annoy my SIL and it really isn't my business.

I hope they bring in something like the English Bacc at A level, so that it is no loner acceptable for schools to mislead students like my niece.

Just another thought - if all the papers have been telling children/teenagers that five out of six of them have failed a test that they didn't even know they were taking/weren't entered into and can be imposed on them retrospectively, is this just another example of how this country likes to undermine and discourage its young people?

"Hey kids, you are all thick and stupid for not passing your driving test even though you like to cycle everywhere?"

BunnyWunny - are you actually me?

Beautiful post. Thank you.

And thank goodness I chose to send my child to state school so they could be segregated from the narrow minded and snobby elitist attitudes of public school.

Any child that has good parental support and emphasis on the values of education from home can succeed in the state system. They also gain a better grounding in skills which are essential to be successful in the wider world rather than the cossetted narrow niche of a private school.

I had a choice when my dd was 3 to send her to the local state c of e primary or the very well regarded and highly academically successful prep school nearby. However on visiting the school it was clear that the results are gained from taking the children in at 3 years old and priming and drilling the students to pass exams. From the age of 7 the desks were organised into straight rows, teacher at the front with children silent and listening. In the older classes, the children were being prepped for exams as early as September, doing practice papers rather than actively engaged in genuine learning experiences. I chose not take this route for my child.

There are some failings in the state system- but my dd is learning well and having fun to boot. She also has a wide set of friends from different social circles and is growing up seeing different aspects of life in our local area.

"Thank goodness I have been able to segregate my children from that"

Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Xenia, you crack me up.

I think it's good to have a broad education acoss the full range of subjects but I have not said all children are bright enough to do a full range, just that it is right to give parents information. Every school I've ever known now and i my childhood has insisted children do a language, maths, english lit english lang etc - there are more schools out there where children aren't up to the broad range than I thought. Thank goodness I have been able to segregate my children from that because of my wise career choices.

Xenia, I really am not sure what planet you are on. Nearly all children in selective private schools do well. Nearly all children in selective state schools do well. The clue is in the word 'selective'. Not all children in comprehensives do so well at academic subjects but they are not the children that would be selected by the private or state selective schools. You keep harking on to the broad education of the 1940s overlooking the fact that over 80% of the population left school at 14, the majority of whom without having had he opportunity to study a foreign language even at the most basic level.

Why do most parents realise that doing a GCSE in a language even if it's your worst subject is a good plan? It is actually a bit embarassing to have a D in French on your certificate if all your other subjects are A's.

History is a great subject that many pupils enjoy but they may have to give up to do something more suited to their career plans if they don't want to have a totally overcrowded timetable.

Applauds GruffaloMama :)

(which board I wonder)

If children do better in private schools where they mostly do the 8 core subjects etc then that means children at state schools could though. You can't have it both ways. So therefore it would be good for the Government say these aren't useless thick things who can do only touristm GCSE. They shoudl have a broad education fot eh 1940s traditional subjects employers adn good universities demand. In other words it could pull up expectations. You used to have to have a language to go to university and most parents realise doing a GCSE ni a language even if it's your worst subject is a good plan as is a knowledge of English history or whatever.

GruffaloMama - brilliantly put!

Oh and reference 'mickey mouse' GCSEs - all GCSEs have to conform to a certain standard. These are available on the Ofqual website. They require that the subject covers a certain scope and places a certain degree of 'cognitive load' on the student and a number of guided learning hours on the teacher. Grading across subjects is reviewed to ensure that an A in one subject isn't out of kilter with others. Just because you don't value a subject doesn't make it pointless. I don't understand astronomy but I think it's quite important other people do.

Xenia - please go and actually find out about some stuff before sounding off. You have demonstrated that whatever your educational attainment, you are an ignorant fool.

The English Bac is an artificial measure implemented as other posters have stated two years after children started their GCSEs and similar qualifications. Many of those children may have taken GCSEs in subjects such as ICT, statistics and Religious Studies. Or they may have 'specialised' in doing three sciences at the expense of a language or a humanity, as Chrissy said. This doesn't make the schools, the children or the parents 'not very bright'. Or Universities less inclined to recruit students who have chosen this route.

You are of course right that about 50% of children are below average (I can recommend a statistics course if you have problems coming to grips with that). And that children in selective and independent schools do better in formal educational attainment measures. But this has damn little to do with IQ. And a lot to do with the investment in teacher to student ratios, school environment, expectations and the demands of parents who are paying dearly for the privilege. Oh and of course overall achievement is most closely correlated to parental involvement. I'd much rather see parents who really knew, understood and communicated with their child and their teachers and came up with a selection of subjects which will best support their ambitions and abilities. Than an ignorant fool who would shove all kids through some bloody stupid sheep dip pseudo-qualification to make some cheap political point. But what do I know - I only work in an awarding body that writes the GCSEs.

They are NOT mickey mouse. They are alternative and appropriate to the child and the future that child wants to pursue - as articulately explored by NonnoMum above.

How insulting.

Yes, no one is saying you cannot continue with mickey mouse GCSes, just that parents have the information to know which places churn out chidlren with those qualifications adn which don't.

Agree NonnoMum!

Studies - sorry I wasn't allowed to take typing at school

Xenia, the state has a duty to educate all our children. Some arrive in the school system without English as their first language, some have special needs (across a huge spectrum, from mild dyslexia to Severe Learning Difficulties), some are the children of drug addicts, some are the children of dual income parents who work long hours and aren't necessarily around to test their children on their Latin verbs.

The curriculum changes and exams are validated by the state.

Then the regime may change and whichever government takes power will find a way of discrediting the previous government.

That is what the Eng Bacc is all about.

I don't mind if my hairdresser can't order a decent wine in the Loire Valley. But I do like her or him to have good social skills (perhaps partially learnt in the GCSE acting, good creativity (perhaps honed in GCSE Art and Design), enough Maths to get by (probably fulfilled in about Year 9) and whatever other subjects she might have done for the love of learning (perhaps s/he installs all her shelves herself - GCSE joinery does have its uses after all). She might also have an A* in GCSE Business Sudies - no wonder her local salon is thriving. A shame some people would right her off as being thick. She's a bit of a hero to me.

As this EBAC was introduced 2 years after pupils had actually chosen their options, it is just a matter of chance that the schools achieving some of the highest percentages at EBAC are doing so. Some selective schools, with points scores over 600, have less than 70% achieving EBAC, which suggests pupils chose other academic subjects in preference to history or geography.

I do take your point though PigTail.

Xenia, I really wouldn't worry about other parents. Schools will often provide a much more detailed breakdown of results than those shown in league tables. They will also become aware of their child's strengths and weeknesses as they progress through secondary schools and pupils will be advised about their options in relation to this.

I doubt if a child capable of Oxbridge entrance (very few indeed) or their parents would be too dim to choose appropriate subjects. And if they have enough academic subjects, they might well choose woodwork as an extra, as a welcome break from the more cerebral stuff.

That's definitely our line PigTail - schools haven't apparently had to limit themselves to the Bac subjects when declaring their 5 a* to cs. Once our Head started filtering through this data it was quite reassuring.

Eviltwin - thanks for that. :)

Having looked at what my local schools results are, though, the girls grammar school achieves 98% grades A-C, but only 51% EB, and the local Independant also gets 98% A-C at GCSE, but only 51% achieved the EB. Both are selective schools, so I'm thinking a non selective state school with 27% of pupils achieving the EB must be doing quite a good job.

Xenia, FYI - GCSEs in "metal work", "acting" and "joinery" don't exist.

May I suggest you become slightly more informed before you start making such bizarre (and frankly bollocks) statements about 50% of state school children being thick?

Thanks.

The parent of a child doing Joinery knows full well that their child wants to be getting on and 'doing' rather than studying academic subjects. Of course there will be more children like this in state schools - because we are comprehensive; we include everyone and do our best for them.

I don't think the rich necessarily have children with higher IQs. I presume they will be driven by the 'good' job meaning a high income, so they are pushed in the academic areas to succeed. Our children are more varied than that. I teach English - not so they can be well read in the Classics, but so that they can make sense of the world around them, via poetry, prose and the written word.

And I'm an ace teacher too btw :)

We have lots of different exams for chidlren of different abilities. Some comprehensives and indeed private school with mixed IQ intake will do those. There is nothing however wrong in parents knowing that most children at this school get exams in subjects which suit those with low IQs and 100% of chidlren in this other school get exams in the traditional subjects. It is the information parents need. Not parents like I am because we've always known your child needs the 8 school cert GCSEs or similar to get on i many careers but parents who were not aware of that and though GCSE joinery was as "good" in terms of Oxbridge entrance or whatever as GCSE maths.

Yes, you had to pass all the subjects to get School Certificate, but obviously only a very small percentage of school leavers left with School Certificate. Certainly far less than the percentage who have achieved this so called English Bacc. More could have achieved this but simply chose a different, not necessariy worse, set of options. It really is just a matter of chance that the schools who achieved the greatest percentage of English Bacc passes happened to have those particular options as compulsary subjects 2 years ago.

Do the children of the rich have higher IQs? Well I suppose the children of those who have used their brains to be successful do. But I am not sure how strong the correlation between IQ and GCSE results actually. Pupils have to do the work whatever their IQ.

Are teachers better at private schools? Who knows! We do know that many private schools select on ability. They also have pupils whose parents think education is important so will encourage regular attendance and commitment to work.