English Bac

Yes, MrsMipp how patronising indeed. Or perhaps a sardonic example that children who have succeeded in taking non-English Bacc subjects might somehow exist in the real world.

And not be written off.

Yes, we all seem to be in agreement.

my point was Fennel's really - that some parents don't seem to know which GCSE will close off choices and the schools have not been telling them loudly enough. The fact you need these core 5 and probably a core 8 - i you had enlgish lit without lang that would look rather strange to many schools and indeed you might want 2 languages not one or 3 sciences. It's just about letting people in on the knowledge they ought to have.

Milly, no part at all. It's been fairly widely known for some years that IQ has no bearing on educational achievement.

Good old Xenia and her up-to-the minute knowledge of all things educational.

What part do IQ tests actually play in education now? Neither of my children have ever had an IQ test.

There are a couple of points on this thread that stick out to me like glowing thumbs.

Firstly, the idea that it's all down to IQ. IQ is a fairly meaningless measure and simply shows an ability to perform well in particular tests. Sure - it can be a useful guide and give some indication of an individual's potential to perform academically but it is completely wrong to define a child's future by it. How well someone does in life academically and professionally has an awful lot more to do with teaching, hard work and motivation than anything else.

Secondly, the current problem is that a large number of children are narrowing their life choices at far too early a stage. Doing a large number of soft subjects for GCSE does mean that a child is taking the "vocational" path and will find it very difficult to cross over to the "academic" path in the future. That might be okay and realistic for the very lowest performers, but potentially disastrous for many of the middle-rankers who shouldn't be having their futures written at age of 14. This is, afterall, why the grammar/secondary modern school system didn't really work for the vast majority.

And how very patronising to say that a girl should do drama because it will help her communicate with her customers when she becomes a hairdresser.

What she said ^^

It's just a way at grouping results is all. Employees and universities, I am sure, will only be interested in the individual grades. And depending on what course they're applying for - the relevant subjects!

It's all cobblers really. Just another way of schools to be able to cook the books and present themselves favourably.

I'm not sure how it's going to work, but it seems to me to be a good idea to make it more explicit that the traditional academic subjects are still the ones most valued by the universities. To me that's obvious (I work in universities, I know a lot about the system) but I'm often surprised how it's not so obvious to everyone. I would have been pushing hard for my dc those English bac subjects anyway, if they were likely to want to go to university (they are all quite young still so it's a bit early to say).

Hello Danebury/Poppy!
Nice to see you - and you talk much sense!

In answer to the OP specifically, I cannot see it being a qualification in its own right, ie., can't imagine anyone saying 'what did you get in your E.bacc?' - as I see it, it's for the league tables primarily (and in order to be able to show 'improvement' in 5 years time) - because the kids who were going to take those subjects probably always would have, if they were going down a trad academic route - so they will care about their results the same amount as they would have before, and probably frame it in terms of 'I got As in Maths, English.....' rather than 'I got a distinction in my E.bacc', iyswim!

Here is an extract of an article from yesterday's Sunday Times. It is about a comprehensive school in Hackney. This school does do exceptionally well, and I do wish we had comprehensives like this in my area (33% Ebac, 82% GCSE incl maths and English, 41% free school meals).

Ten Cambridge places for East End academy

Ten sixth-formers at a city academy in one of the poorest parts of Britain have won places at Cambridge University, putting it on a par with some of the most famous public schools in the country.

The performance of pupils at Mossbourne academy in Hackney, east London, is comparable with those at Fettes College in Edinburgh, where Tony Blair studied, and Haileybury in Hertfordshire, whose old boys include Clement Attlee.

Mossbourne, which opened in 2004, was one of the first academies created under Labour?s programme designed to turn around sink schools by freeing them from council control. There are now 407 in England, accounting for more than one in 10 secondary schools.

The academy, designed by Lord Rogers, has been hailed by politicians of all parties. Tony Blair saw it as a pioneer of the academies movement, while David Cameron and Michael Gove, the education secretary, argue it shows how education that concentrates on discipline and core academic subjects can bring structure to the lives of pupils from poor or tough backgrounds, giving them the same opportunity to succeed as those in more prosperous areas.

Gruffalo and Danebury
You both talk a lot of sense.
Going back to the OP'S original question, EatyourVeg asked about the Eng Bacc, not about the state/private debate.
Personally, I'd like to know a few more FACTS about the English Bacc and how it will work out in the future for successive cohorts of pupils.

Edited to add - English teacher here - blush! some of them want to be DOING, not dong. Although dong does have a certain comedic value.

I also don't mean that my son won't do well - he will, but not by someone like Xenia's standards. I think he may not even go to Uni and if he doesn't I'll get over it. He will do well because he will be himself, bless him.

JoanofArgos, I am a purple poppy elsewhere x

Xenia - you are assuming that ALL children want to go to university. They don't!

Some of them - as I said before - want to be dong. And French or German or Spanish is of no use to them. We need to think of the individual child rather than creating a mass of automated robots all aiming for the top universities and the 'top' jobs.

Myself, I have a dd who WILL do well. Because that's what she aims for - she wants to be a midwife; she sets herself targets, works her fingers to the bone, wants to learn, find out, discover more, challenge etc etc. She's forthright, progressive, well read - and studying BAC subjects at - shock, horror - a state school - where her path is well known, and where she is actively encouraged to aim high.

My son? Not a chance. It's just not his bag. He works hard enough. Shines in some places, not in others. Would rather nobody ever noticed him. Ever.

Two different children, two different needs. And the state system is meeting those needs just fine.

Honestly though, if you wanted to make sweeping statements about 'thick' children and how pleased you were not to have anything to do with them, you just wouldn't mess it up for yourself by writing THAT badly, would you?

And you wouldn't claim to know what's what in the state and the private sector and then completely undermine yourself by referring to 'metalwork' GCSEs and the like?

Xenia obviously has a marvellous "edication" and has a wonderful life being sheltered from those thick factory workers who do the unimportant jobs.

Seriously, what a nasty attitude you have Xenia.

I do not think that Xenia can be a real person.

Xenia - do you have GCSE spelling ?

i started a thread xenia

subjects of death

i'm sure you could contribute

This is the thing - why don't the state school parents all know this? If you have the 8 or so traditional GCSEs and good A levels you will do fine in those jobs where it matters (which of course aer not most jobs in factories and the like).

If universities require a foreign language as I'm sure they always have and some do still today then the state schools should be telling parents at age 11 if your child doesn't get a move on to pass their GCSE french or considers dropping it then their chances of XYZX university are totally ruined. It's only the ignorance I'm complaining about.

Also people wrongly think media studies A level is great for journalism. you'd be better off with English and then an English degree from a good university. Same with law - law A level is done by people who aren't very bright who don't become lawyers. "Business studies" tends to eb for the not so bright either and yet a parent without much edication might thing the journalist/lawyer/business children should do media studies, law and business studies A levels.

The universities have on their web sites lists of dubious A levels so it's not hard for teenagers really to check but schools could do a bit more.

that's great,.. i miht start a thread.. may I copy and paste your post

absolutely categorically not media studies for journalism - dh works in broadcasting and is in a position of hiring people and gets hundreds and hundreds of applications each time his organisation advertises a job. The media studies graduates don't even get onto the consideration pile unless they've got stacks of relevant experience.

None of my journalist colleagues has a media studies degree - it's all history, English, PPE, MFL - although tbh a science degree would make a candidate stand out (v few journalists really understand science properly)

I did a postgraduate diploma in broadcast journalism - and the postgrad diplomas from City and Cardiff are fine - but everything else is a waste of time if you think you're heading for a newsroom

sorry about strike, not intended

Re Millyr's comment: perhaps women can come on with advice from their careers to tell children what will work in reality for their chosen future.

My v good journo friend says not to choose media studies for journalism but history/english/something more academic.

True? I know there are lots of journos here.

What about other jobs?

"I don't think the rich necessarily have children with higher IQs"

They don't necessarily and without exception but a study did show something along these lines about the children of professional people.

There was a thread about it, about nature/nurture I think and whether it was children got more support at home.

I tend to agree with the people who were going on a week or so ago about our potential not being genetically limited so I think it's more to do with school/teachers/parental commitment.

If you read the small print for many 'top' universities you will find they do specify a foreign language at GCSE.

We found this out the hard way when my DS1 was applying. Luckily he did scrape a pass in French. Otherwise he would not have been able to even apply to the course he is currently on.