angered by tuition for grammar school 11+

My concern with comprehensive education is just how selective it can be. If the ability range is so diverse how can all pupils needs be properly catered for? The grammar I went to had streaming and there was a broad range of ability. I think it is an exceptional comprehensive that can cater well for all needs. There aren't any where we live that can do that.

Can I also comment that the whole process was much more stressful than I had considered - because we were out of county the tests were on two non-consecutive days of the Oct half term which basically meant that half the holiday week was blocked off.

Quattro, but the grammar school system doesn't help social mobility It just allows those kids who already fare well to fare even better. It got sod all to do with helping innately clever kids from disadvantaged backgrounds

We live outside the Bucks catchment but close enough for me to consider it worth my DD taking the 11+. Like others have commented, I did not consider tutoring as I thought it pointless in the long term.

She is bright but struggled with time management with the practise papers.
The first time she only managed to do about half the questions. She did the other papers and I spent a bit of time giving her some tips but we only got the papers in Sept and with three children I just ran out of time to practise with her more before the half term exam.

On the exam days she didn't finish the paper - she wouldn't say by how much but I think about ten questions given how she had got on at home. I think she therefore did very well to end up with 108 but is obviously below below the pass mark of 121 and I was worried how she would react to not passing. Luckily she didn't seem too bothered, but I am sure that with a few sessions of tutoring she would have passed.

I now console myself with the fact that even if she had passed, she probably would not got in as we are outside the catchment.

Oh let me guess. We abolish all the remaining grammar schools, so that no child has an opportunity to enjoy an academic education unless their parents can afford it.

I'm not talking from the perspective of self-interest. I have no interest in preservation of grammar schools per se. I do however believe that children should have an opportunity to have a proper academic education and I don't believe that's available in the majority of comprehensive schools.

If enough people get angry they system can be changed.

whats the point of beng angry about this? obviously parents are going to do what is best for their kids as they see fit. and if that means buying lots of plastic tat at christmas, or paying for three years of tuition fees, or six years of piano lessons, then that is what they will do. why be angry at other peoples life choices?

You don't need selective education to have differentiated education.

I'm in favour of selective education. Ds is in pre-prep in a class with a huge ability range. It makes for difficulties for the teacher - reading age spread is 6 yrs.

I know someone who has booked a tutor for her yr 2 child for 11+ tuition. She emailed all of our year to ask for recommendations (some dcs in our year have older siblings). I thought she was joking. The other parents with older siblings have done one hour a week tutoring from yr 5 so one year of tutoring.

We had three practice sessions when I did the 11+. First session I had no idea but the next two I scored very high in the remaining sessions. Don't think I was a fast learner but was definitely grammar school material.

Eh? Don't get you, quattrocento!

A person could do that Quattro but their child would need to be a fast learner (like your own) and the parent would need to be time rich and well educated themselves.

My neighbours are tutoring their kids from age 4 (one is also at a private prep but still does Kumon). This is to get them to pass the 11+ in the next LEA. The World is mad and these kids will pass I am sure as both are bright already but to me it just seems immense pressure and can only lead to disappointment if they do not get all As at A LEvels because the expectations are so high.

And this question recognition practice takes how long exactly? You could teach that perfectly effectively as a parent with practice papers in four sessions. Ooh look here's that manipulating equations question again ... And ooh look, here's that Venn diagram again.

I haven't forgotten the grammars which don't just test through VR and NVR - that's just totally unfair IMO.

Interesting to see Seeker advocating increasing social inequality ... :)

Quattrocento, your experience with your daughter is interesting but anecdotal. The Bucks study linked to earlier shows that tutoring significantly improves the chances of getting into grammar school. It's particularly true with the superselective schools like Tiffin, where children are taught by intensive practice instantly to recognise the question type (what do I need to do here?), to know how long to spend on each question type (is this worth more than 3 seconds?), taught speed techniques for certain types (on Type 16, eliminate by doing x,y or z first) and given advice even on what to do if they run out of time.

Children who aren't tutored, unless exceptionally bright (and of course every year there will be some) simply aren't fast enough or accurate enough.

I agree.

Increase the number of grammar schools by all means. Increase the number until there is a grammar school place for every child in the country. Then there will be a proper comprehensive system. Which is what everyone wants, surely. Nobody can really like a system that tells 75% of children that they are failures at the age of 10.5. And, just as bad, tells 25% that they are better than the other 75%

I assure you it is not an urban myth I have a couple of friends who have given up teaching in schools to tutor children for the 11 plus. It is very higly paid job and some people start their children in year two.

And English 11+ papers too in some cases - again, reading comprehension skills and creative writing skills can be improved by intensive long-term tutoring, too.

FWIW, I'm v against tutoring for 11+ exams personally, but v in favour of grammar schools (I went to one myself, and agree with the comments about incresed social mobility in the past as a result).

Should add was shocked to be told by a parent in my DD's class last year that half her year 3 class had private tutors! What on earth for! (most of these would not be tutoring for 11+ and their primary school is perfectly good).

Quattrocento - of course students who have learnt how to do the question types do better than those who have never, ever done a similar test. How can that be urban myth? Your own child went up c 30%. And a child whose vocabulary was poor due to limited reading could easily improve more.

Don't forget that not all GS entrance exams are just VR and NVR - many have maths too, which covers the whole year 6 curriculum, which no child in a state school will have covered by the start of year 6 when the tests are sat. To give a child a good chance in an 11+ maths test is virtually impossible without tutoring - whether by a paid tutor or by parents.

Okay, so what's your solution then? Seeker wants to abolish all grammar schools. I think there should be more of them, with more information/support for access available in state primary schools.

I think OP said she was angry about it.

This is reasonable. However part of the solution has to be to acknowledge there is a problem. The schools cannot as they must continue to assert their system is fair.

I think there has been enough on this and other forums, especially on threads on how to tutor, to suggest it goes on. Indeed there is a whole website on eleven plus exams.

Simply suggesting that it is parental paranoia gone mad is not sufficient. The paranoia has a firm grip in SW London. So many children sit the exam that one mark off means twenty places down the wait list. The exceptional child may be OK. Tutoring may be seen as the way to ensure the more ordinary score every point available.

The bigger question is why are so many people chasing across London for a very small number of schools. This is the cause of the problem. Facile to simply blame parents.

I don't live in Kingston. Reluctant to state on a public forum where I do like. I am aware that the Tiffin schools do VR and NVR and I think you are all utterly bonkers to coach.

If you're coaching for VR and NVR then the child's ability must be in question IMO

Stubborn as a mule, but then again I have practised these papers with DD and there can be no benefit in intensive coaching for them. None. Parental paranoia gone mad.

Horrible to see the levels of parental anxiety on this subject and worse to imagine the impact on the children.

Move to South Bucks and see if it's an urban myth then Quattro. I can name any number of children who have been very heavily coached in the very specific questions asked in the local VR test. Yes they are being robbed blind, there are some companies and tutors doing very nicely indeed out of it all.
Personally I would see grammars abolished. I grew up in area with good comps - far fairer.

Quattrocento,

Where do you live. Certainly not Kingston.

Read the Tiffin thread.

We know people who were delighted simply because their Y4 child was accepted by one of SW London's top Tiffin tutors. The tutor tests before accepting a child and then it is assumed the place is guaranteed.

I don't know if you tutor to get the tutor!