angered by tuition for grammar school 11+

I'm sure that's correct for London Custard but our nearest super-selective (50 mile radius) has less than 400 applicants applying for 120 places yet is still up towards/ at the top of the league and the leavers' destinations are also always towards the top.

Hence my comments about demographics and strength of school.

I posted on this thread last year, dd1 is in an excellent grammar school and we didn't have a tutor, just a few weeks of looking at past papers at home. I felt very strongly that this was the best approach.

However now that dd2 is in year 5 and the exams are just a year away I have to admit to panicking and packing her off to a tutor. If anything g dd2 is brighter than dd1, but now I've seen how much dd1 has flourished at the grammar I want it even more for dd2.

CustardCake those numbers don't apply to all super-selectives. The numbers you cite are at the very top end of the scale and depend on demographics more than anything else; they aren't a measure of the success of the school.

Strongly agree with Bonsoir, especially that 'hothousing' is mad.

There is a huge difference between hothousing a child for the 11+ (unlikely to be a good long term plan) and tutoring a child in order to make up for the shortcomings of the education he/she has received at primary.

Those children who have needed 2 plus years of tuition just to get through to the grammar school are not going to find it easy. The parents of those children need to think long and hard on whether they want their dc to suffer the pressure for the next 7 years doing something at a pace they cannot cope with.

In many cases it is a recipe for disaster. The psychiatric problems which can manifest themselves onto those 'eager to please the parents' 'it is expected of me' 'they will be so disasppointed if I do not get all A stars' is terrible.

On the other side are children who would have naturally won their own place without the tutoring but had to give it up for those who have been tutored to death for a higher mark.

Rant over.

"there is no way an unqualified parent is going to teach techniques to the same standard as a tutor who has coached lots of children through the 11+"

I thought that before I did it, but now I realise it's just not true. I bought an 11plus guide to maths, English and VR and we went through it together. And thanks to the internet, you can find out about particular exams and the techniques yourself.

If you have any problems, just ask on the 11plus forum, and you get loads of helpful replies. I don't think that tutors have a magic formula at all. It's all pretty standard stuff. Also, I've since discovered there are plenty of tutors who don't have a clue themselves, or who just give their children old papers to go through.

HuntyCat, don't be put off. If that's what you want to do, go for it.

Just because people are immigrants they don't have more right to tutor their kids than anyone else! I would say they shouldn't do it in the same way I don't think anyone else should do it.

But I can easily understand why people do use tutoring. Who wouldn't when they feel a particular school is right for their child and the competition for places is so high?

I agree with Cretaceous tutoring can be done at home, but there is no way an unqualified parent is going to teach techniques to the same standard as a tutor who has coached lots of children through the 11+.

I don't see why the parents complaining about tutoring can't buy a few past papers. I'm sure I wouldn't have the money nor inclination to have the dcs tutored twice a week for two years, but surely anybody's hand can steer the mouse towards Amazon and buy a set of Bond papers. Is £20 too much for some people to invest in their kids?

We are not in a grammar school area but I bought some papers for ds to try. Once he was familiar with the format he scored highly.

Tutoring can teach speed and technique, but I think only wide reading will enable a pupil to score well on the verbal reasoning.

And it's not all Persephones and Hugos being tutored, either. Many immigrant families are passionate about education and spend vast amounts of money on tutoring in order to advantage their children - who on MN would say they shouldn't do this?

Old thread, but HuntyCat, I think you are totally wrong about being at a disadvantage.

I have a huge library of books, many gleaned from jumble sales. Books just aren't valued at all. Go along to a jumble sale at the end, and for £1 you can fill your sack with the leftovers - always huge numbers of lovely books. Your children's school will have heaps of books you can borrow. Organise an after-school second-hand book sale.

Re tutoring, we DIYed due to cost, and my DS got into a superselective, ahead of many prep school children and those who had been tutored from Y3. (We even picked up practice books from the jumble sale!) In fact, I think that those who DIY often do a better job than tutors. Go to the eleven plus forum, and get tips and advice. You don't need many resources at all, and there are lots of free ones on the internet.

My DS is in Y8 now, and loving it. He has lots of friends, because he is no longer one of the "nerdy ones" - he's just average, and fits in really well, which is great.

Halloween, and about time for the Zombie march from Kingston station.

It could become something for locals to go and observe. When we did it I had felt that it was the perfect scene for anyone making a documentary about education. One scene which would sum up any number of Mumsnet threads.

And I missed the op date too!

My DD sat her 11+. I was staggered that there were over 3000 girls applying for 90 places. People had come from all over the country! She had a bit of tuition, to cover exam technique and we got some verbal and non verbal exercise books from Smith's. She didn't get in, but is doing wonderfully well in the to set at the local comp.

A friend of hers did get in and her Mum says the transition from being top of the class at primary to bottom at secondary has been very hard for her.

I like this zombie thread! We were anxiously waiting for 11+ results when it was around and I remember reading it, and ds has now happily settled into his new school.

Must be zombie threads, post.

And in our area - It's NOT VR and NVR tests - which would be a damn sight easier to pass without tutoring - my DS1 got 98% on his FIRST ever try at an NVR practice paper. It's the knowledge of various writing styles, each year different, varying from Othello one year, to A Christmas Carol the next year, to Captain Corelli's Mandolin this year.

And the library ISN'T free - not if you have to use public transport to travel the 4.5 miles to get there, with 4 dc in tow, 3 of which you have to pay for. In my town, you pay 2/3 of adult bus fare on the buses from the age of 5yo. So it costs me £9.95 to get to the nearest library and back. I just CAN'T afford it every week.

How the hell am I supposed to give him this sort of knowledge, when all the books he does own and read are what is available in the only shop on my estate - a Tesco superstore?!

They don't exactly teach things like this at state primary schools - in fact, my primary school no longer has a functioning school library as they needed the space as an extra classroom. (Took a bulge class four years ago). THAT'S why there aren't many dc on FSM attending Grammar schools.

What's with the zombie threads? Is it a halloween thing?

I have a 'very clever' dc. DS1 was IQ tested by his primary school when he was aged just 8yo in Y3, and came out with a result of a verbal IQ of 132. However - there is still quite a huge chance that he will not get into the only Grammar school in my town. Simply because it is a very well thought of Grammar school (CRGS), and EVERY child that gets a place has been heavily tutored since the start of Y3. I cannot afford a tutor.

I am a lone parent on benefits, and the GS is the best route out of the poverty cycle for my DS1. But because of the tutoring of people that apply to CRGS from all over Essex, I am seriously worried he won't get in. All the workbooks I do at home with him aren't the same as having tutoring - and I can't AFFORD half of the workbooks that are recommended either.

It really riles me that a child that is as clever as my DS1 may miss out simply because he has not been taught how to pass the 11+ exam - he is being taught how to pass the SATS exam with level 5's across the board (or he was until he HIT level 5, anyway...). In maths now, despite having been given the level 5 work in Y4, he is being made to do it again, as the (state primary) are struggling to effectively differentiate for him when he is working at a higher level of maths than any of their Y6's (apparently, according to Deputy HT).

He is now in Y5, and I am doing my best to help prepare him for the 11+, but it's hard when I can't afford many resources.

My children are in a prep school where all the children are tutored 4 times a week at least. The parents show off how much private tuition they are giving their children. We live in a Grammar school magnet area as well, they are preparing for both Private and Grammar .

Mrs G, do you think that's where I'm going wrong with DS1's homework? I'm expecting him to do it himself!

My dd goes to a Grammar school, I have a feeling that Seeker has said previously where she lives and if I'm correct we are in the same area. I've met quite a few of dd's friends and their families and wouldn't say they were all middle class by any means. Quite a few also come from homes where English isn't the first language, so I'm not sure I agree that either of those things are a factor.

I don't believe that you need a paid tutor, we certainly didn't and I do believe that a child with the right ability would be flagged up at primary school. At my dc's school they were tested for vr, nvr & maths with results put at the bottom of their end of year report with a key to tell you if they are on track to pass the 11+. At the parents evenings the teachers bring it up also, so not parent driven. Whilst there might be some parents who are not keen for their dc's to do the 11+ or who don't support their dc's I know our primary school would.