angered by tuition for grammar school 11+

If they are coached intensively, children pass who get SATs level 4s or even level 3s...and that's why they struggle once at the school.

It is an unfair system, but I have yet to see one that is fair, since the introduction of league tables.

It's not the same in all grammar school areas and for all grammar schools. In some all you have to do is pass - then the places are allocated by proximity to the school, going out until all the places are filled.

Still unfair - but differently unfair.

In the area where I live we still have several grammar schools, sadly the tutoring situation is completely out of hand and all children now have to be tutored just to put them on a level playing field when they go into the exam.

The schools are massively oversubscribed and some parents are tutoring from year 3 or 4!!

In a perfect world no child woud be tutored and if I had my way tutoring would be banned and then the exam results would be a true reflection of each child's abilities.

We are just beginning to think about the whole secondary nightmare again with Dd3 and having been though it twice already it is not something I am looking forward to.

Good luck what ever you decide to do.

The grammar school system is unfair. IMO the only fair way to give all children an equal opportunity would be continuous teacher assessment throughout primary years.

Thanks for that. I briefly looked at Bucks 11+ a few months ago and it seemed as though the pass mark was fixed at 121 and it didn't matter what score you achieved, you either passed or you didn't. Then there were appeals which, if successful, were treated the same as someone who scored 100% in the exam.

There will be a set number of places (X) in the year group, and the top (X) number of pupils from the 11+ who put that school as their first choice, will be offered places. If any turn the place down, they will go on down the list of candidates.

Thus the mark required to get into the selective school will vary from year to year.

Is the pass mark fixed, or does it vary every year to cream off the top x number of places?

And that is exactly why I hate the grammar school system so much. There is nothing about it that's fair. Nothing

I work in a gs and increasingly tutoring is the case. Eight/ten years ago there would be a handful who were tutored, now it's the vast majority. Obviously it disadvantages those whose parents don't do this, for whatever reason; but also some very coached children can't cope with the work/workload once at the school, especially if parents think 'job done'. At parents' eve a parent actually said on hearing their child was working at B grade in year 7, "What's B grade. B grade is plumber. What are you going to do to make him A grade?"

It seriously is worth looking at the practice books and papers with your dd yourself - there are ones that start at around your dd's age, and work up to the 11+ level. She would get experience of the way the questions are asked, and how to tackle them, and that would stand her in good stead for the exam.

If you do do some of these books with her now, and she decides she doesn't want to go to the grammar school, the work won't be wasted - she'll still have benefited, but if she does, you'll have given her a long slow build up rather than hothousing, as so many of the mums you've talked to are doing.

Where we lived there were 4 grammar schools - two for girls and two for boys - with high demand for every place, and we had the same stories about needing lots of tutoring to get in, but as I said, ds1 got in with practically no tutoring, ds2 only had one hour a week for the last year, and ds2's friend just got tutored at home, and both of them got in too, so it is not the case that you must have your child intensively tutored to get into these schools.

I've met parents who are tutoring 3 year olds for entrance exams at 11, and we've had adverts from tutors pushed through our door. We're not in London, either!

All three of my dses sat the 11+. With ds1, I didn't go for the tutoring, because I felt that if he had to be pushed to get into the grammar school, he'd struggle once he was there. However, when we gave him some past papers about a month before the exam, he did disastrously, and we spent the time until the exam stressing and worrying (though trying not to pass this onto ds1). In the end he passed, but pretty low down the list, got into the school and was happy there.

With ds2 we decided to go for tutoring, to avoid the last minute worries, and he went to his tutor one evening a week for the year leading up to the exam. At the same time his best friend's mum was working with her ds (with family help), basically tutoring him at home - and both boys got in. Ds2 would have got in anyway without the private tutor, I think.

With ds3 we sent him to the same tutor, and after only a few weeks he had a total meltdown about the work and the exam, and asked to stop the tutoring, so we did. He was all set to go to the local comprehensive, but decided at the last moment that he would sit the 11+ (we hadn't withdrawn him from the exam - not sure why), so did it with little or no preparation, and didn't get good enough marks to get into the grammar school. But as we then moved to Scotland, it was moot anyway, and the boys are all now at a very good comprehensive, and I wish that had been the option for all three of them.

The rather longwinded upshot of this is that I agree that it is not a good thing for children to be hothoused - 3 or 4 nights a week for 2 years is definitely overkill, in my book, but a child who is bright enough for the school will probably get in with a bit of extra help either from a tutor or from a parent - there are good practice books and 11+ past papers available.