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Original poster

state school child got into Eton

158 replies

kris123 · 16/12/2010 16:05

Dear Mums,

Our son was accepted into Eton, and we are indeed very happy, but as always there are now new concerns. He is currently attending a state school, and is due to finishing this year at year 6, whereas Eton only starts in year 9. This means that we have two years "inbetween".

Please note that the offer to Eton, as all of them, is conditional on passing the common entrance exam , which I hear is not difficult, but still requires some work (especially as there are specific subjects like history and geography and latin to cover).

Our choices are:

  1. play it safe, send him to the local prep school waste 14k a year basically, and put him under totally not needed stress with kids fighting for 13+ intake. Most prep schools will take him as he will simply improve their statistics.

  2. send him to the grammar school, which our son will most probably get into (he did pass the test, but decisions due in March). Issue there for me is that they will not know the Independent Common Entrance System, and will not prepare him for it, and furthermore will not even know that he is leaving them at age of 13 to go to Eton. To add to this they do not teach Latin, one subject that is needed on Common Entrance Tests i think.

  3. send our child abroad for one year, to France or Germany to learn a new language, have some fun, ski, relax, and basically enjoy a year after the stress of last two months, learning to board etc. Then bring him back for year 8 to prep school and prepare him for the exam that is towards the end of the year.

Now, I am lost with this topic, but maybe someone can guide me, especially on feasibility of plan 2) and 3). You see we are very much pro state school system - grammar of course, and want our son to learn that there are grammar schools for smart kids and be proud of his years there.

Now my concerns are:

a) how difficult are these common entrance tests? can someone actually fail them if they are smart and do some work, or do you need a lot of work and prep for it like with the admissions process?

b) what is the level and type of work done at the grammar schools... is their program similar to prep schools so that this knowledge can be used for common entrance?

c) how risky would it be to take a child out of the UK education system for one year, and bring him back to the prep school and prepare for the common entrance tests in one year?

Thanks, happy but still concerned parent

OP posts:
Original poster
kris123 · 17/12/2010 11:33

Thank you everone once again. You all confirm that prep school is needed, and despite this not originally being my choice of action, your consistency of views is actually very reassuring.

Civil, you understand me approach to Eton very well stating - " If you're going to go private, you might as well go to Eton - much more different than a bog standard private school".

My approach to primary school was very similar to this, hence I opted for state school and not a prep school. My child is very happy there too, and many children get to grammars and various public schools (though I do admit that this being a VE CoE school it is probably not that representative of a standard primary school discussed on the BBC this morning).

I should also clarify that I wanted my son to go to grammar school for years 7 and 8, also in order to somewhat protect him from the "Eton bashing" that I often see even on this website and to which my son could be exposed to later in life. The world can be a cruel place to Eton graduates who do not make it to be PMs and MPs, or have no "old money" to fall on, and I figured it would be good if one day my son is able to identify himself with both the fellow Etonians AND the state school graduates. I would like him to be flexible here and somewhat immune to "Eton bashing" he could later experience. Not every Etonian will become a PM.

Undeniably I am still bit unexperienced with these issues (hence my almost silly questions on CE), but having seen Eton, Harrow, Winchester, and many other schools, I do think that a place like Eton, 1st choice public school for so many, can be absolutely great to prepare for the 21st century. Utilisation of time, ethos, sports, even somewhat outdated dress code, almost total separation from parents (no weekend boarding) - this is what I think my child needs in the times when we, the parents, are afraid to even allow them to walk alone down the road to the supermarket.

Also, perhaps not too humbly, I think that the fact that my son, state school educated, of immigrant background, was accepted, is in itself the best sign to me that the place is clearly adapting and being open to boys of various backgrouds. You know, contrary to many stereotypes, nobody asked me for a parent interview, display my bank statement, etc. It was always about him, and frankly I have little doubt that he will succeed there. I am only somewhat worried about this potential later phenomenon of "Eton bashing" - which probably has an impact on kids confidence in itself (some probably retreat into bunkers of fellow Etonians, while others appear simply overconfident), and hence I feel that a state school background will protect him from that too.

Hope this makes sense, and once again thank you for all your views. I will definitely speak to Eton Admissions now, but at least I will know better now what I am talking about rather than looking like a totally unprepared parent that admitingly until your advice I somewhat was.

OP posts:
Abr1de · 17/12/2010 11:16

'The alternative would be 13+ prep schools which aren't that happy to have boys arriving into year 7, prefer them in year 6 as the CE curriculum starts then. I have a friend who is moving her child into year 6 for that reason and also aiming at Eton. '

That's when I moved my son--year 6. He'd been in state primary before then. He had to work very hard on his non-existent French to catch up with the others. The standard they were expected to reach by May of year eight was: present, imperfect, perfect and near-future.

MrsGuyOfChristmasBorn · 17/12/2010 10:21

would just add that DS has been this morning working on planning his revision timetable for the Xmas hols as tehy have the mocks in January - he is expected to do an average of 3 hours per day - as his school friends are also in the same boat can be managed - if his friends were not taking CE would be hard for him to focus.

seeker · 17/12/2010 10:09

""You see we are very much pro state school system - grammar of course,"

So you're not actually pro state education at all - you're pro the state education available to 23% of the children in about 10 Local Authorities out of 150.

So you are pro 160ish state secondary schools out of 3000ish!

sethstarofbethlehemsmum · 17/12/2010 09:59

the English education system is very confusing if you're not used to it though, especially factoring in all the state/private issues. A lot of the OP's confusions seem to have come from assuming words mean what they sound like they mean, like 'common entrance' and 'preparatory school'. Which is fair enough.

LetsEscape · 17/12/2010 09:57

Also a point of information. Westminster under school does take 20 children in at 11+ and give them a very accelerated year 7 to catch up on the other boys in the year they then mix them up in year 8 into scholarship and common entrance streams. Entrance is NOT automatic into Westminster at 13+ (unless you have a full bursary) although in 10 years no one has failed because they select very able boys who they know will work hard and achieve the 70%+ in every exam. If you want to apply you may have missed the deadline as the exam is in January but if you get in touch directly perhaps they would understand your predicament. A large group of Westminster under school boys choose to go to Eton so socially he would have already some friends.

Other schools such as Kings, Colet Court (St Paul's) are no longer preparing boys for full CE so would not be an option. The alternative would be 13+ prep schools which aren't that happy to have boys arriving into year 7, prefer them in year 6 as the CE curriculum starts then. I have a friend who is moving her child into year 6 for that reason and also aiming at Eton.

Do let us know what advice Eton has on the matter.

propatria · 17/12/2010 09:45

What a very strange op,your son is hopefully going to Eton but you know nothing about the exams he will need to pass,most peculiar,why have you not spoken to The College,they are more than happy to advise prospective parents.

LIZS · 17/12/2010 08:54

ds is taking CE next summer. It is very much a specific syllabus and in some subjects you answer different questions is you want to achieve a higher level (ie Latin has at least 3 and even level 1 is not that basic) btu you can substitute some subjects ie Spanish for Latin. The papers are formal exams involving essay writing and evidence based answers, a technique which has ot be learned. Most of the syllabus has been taught by end Year 7 with Year 8 devoted to revision, projects and extra topics or scholarship level. If he needs CE I think he'd really need to attend a prep school aiming for it - several children join dc's prep u year 7 to do so - or have tutor to supplement. The likes of Whitgift and Trinity have the bulk of their intake at 11+ so don't need to do CE syllabus.

MrsGuyOfChristmasBorn · 17/12/2010 08:28

Well done to your son! However like others, I am surprised you did not get better info from Eton on this, and/or have not researched the whole thisng very carefully - surely you will have made several visits to the school, interviewed prospective housemasters etc?. Echo what others, especially LE said about prep schools.
Grammar schol will not be preparing for CE - you will need to go to a good prep - Eton normally recommend which ones. My DS is taking common entrance this year. He is a top achieving prep, and the Latin he is doing in Y8 covers what I did for A level (the grammar i mean, not the literature!)and his set also started Greek this year. The French grammar is also at least GCSE level. The boys are expected to achive above 70% to get into the top three schools.

amerryscot · 17/12/2010 08:21

I second what others have said about doing the two years at prep school.

The style of the Common Entrance papers is similar to GCSE (although of a lower standard). They are not like SATs papers.

The material for the French paper will not be taught in state school as the standard is very close to GCSE level. The Geography, work includes coursework from a fieldtrip with quite high academic demands (eg looking for a full evaluation rather than just descriptions). The RS work is different to a standard KS3 syllabus. For English, there are set texts, which may not be used in non-prep schools.

Prep schools are lovely for boys, especially a mixed one where the girls have left at 11+.

LetsEscape · 17/12/2010 07:54

As said before common entrance to Eton, Westminster, St Paul's is a minimum of 70% in each subject not 55% as in many schools so that is hard. In reality the boys will be getting 80+ in every subject. This does not give room for a weak subject. the biggest problem for state school educated boys will be the lack of French (standard expected is GCSE) and Latin as he will be competing with boys who have studied French 'properly' for 5 years and latin for 3. If you are a native French speaker then fine but if not he will be hugely disadvantaged and needs a school that will prepare at this level and will be able to accelerate him. Common entrance curriculum is very content-led so a grammar school will not cover the ground (nor will a 11-18 private school) except perhaps in maths and English and he will be disadvantaged. By way of example in Latin an 11+ entry school will cover book 1 Cambridge course in year 7, a accelerated course for children like your son will cover book 1-3 + another book in year 7 alone. They also have to do a geography project as part of the course and this would be very difficult without guidance. I am surprised Eton have not made this clear, st Pauls is very clear that if you intend to come at 13+ you need to have attended a 13+ prep school for the CE course. The ISEB curriculum is on the web do have a look and this will give you some idea of the expectations as mentioned before the exams are like a mini GCSE. I find your attitude to prep schools a bit strange as if you don't like the prep school atmosphere I would be pretty sure you may find Eton atmosphere not comfortable either.

civil · 17/12/2010 05:06

If you're going to go private, you might as well go to Eton - much more different than a bog standard private school.

If your son is bright, a bit of tutoring with someone who understands common entrance should be ok. A bright child can always catch up on latin and french.

I'm sure that my sisters and I would have been able to pass a common entrance exam on a bit of personal study, with some support. (We wouldn't have been accepted to Eton, though, due to gender)

Original poster
kris123 · 17/12/2010 04:33

Thank you for all your comments. Very useful indeed, all suppporting a view that prep school is a way forward. I must say that in many ways I am breaking new grounds for me here, ie, discovering what CEs are etc, hence my ideas might seem strange to you - and hence also my post asking for your kind advice.

Before this week I thought that CE were just a standard entry exams. It certainly appears to be much more than that.

Your comments were really great. Thank you.

I especially like the part that I do not want him to get the bad start at Eton. This would be silly and counterproductive.

And yes I guess that I could have been bit prejudice on prep schools... as I thought that all they do is prepare the kids for the entry tests, but I recognise now that it is much more as the CE is more than just the iq tests that we had to write so far. If I can add, my prejudice os/was also somewhat based on the acceptance criteria into prep school - it appears to be hardly selective on talent.

Yes I am very much set on boarding. In fact I see this as a major reason for my choice of school, or even the private system. I will also feel much more comfortable personally to know that the 150k paid on education gives my son not just an alternative to great state education like excellent grammar, but that it will offer him a different education experience altogether. It could be just me though.

As to other minor issues: I think that grammar schools take on kids mid year when spaces come up so you do not waste a place from someone if you leave early. One of you is correct on Westminster - 11+ intake is automatic for the full 7 years. It would be interesting to find out if that would actually prepare my son for the CE.

As to finances: i am unlikely to meet the criteria for any means tested bursary, as they usually stop at combined 60k income, what might sound a lot, but anyone who lives in London in 6 person family will know that this does not get you that far.

Once again thank you for all your inputs. Perhaps it was not what I wanted, but it is what it is and I have to work with it. I must say that I am very surprised at the differences in state/private systems, even syllabuses at such early stage, etc. Its a good thing that at least GCSEs and A-levels are the same.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 16/12/2010 22:44

Westminster Under School takes boys in at 11. But this is a prep school like any other. You still need to pass CE. Plenty of Under School boys end up going elsewhere, and the majority intake at 13 is not from the Under school.

The cost comparison is between Eton at 13 and Westminster Under/Westminster at 11. This is not a valid comparison, given both schools actually start at 13, and both probably mean moving to the private sector at 11.

(The exceptional boy can make the leap at 13. But they are rare and need to be absolutely exceptional. The sort of boy who is happy studying Latin etc on their own.)

lazymumofteenagesons · 16/12/2010 21:55

Needmoresleep - Westminster take some state school boys into their prep school at year 7. Once they take them at this stage I think progression to the senior school is a formality.

Needmoresleep · 16/12/2010 21:45

I dont understand, Westminster also starts at 13 and entry is via CE. It is the cheaper option,, though more expensive than the other London day schools.

The trouble about 13+ entry is that you have about a term off and then it is GCSE preparation. These schools get their great grades because half the work has already been done at CE.

Kids do a lot of French, Latin, Maths etc at CE. Worth having a skim through the Galore Park books that cover the sylabus.

If you want your child prepared then it is probably the Prep School.

lazymumofteenagesons · 16/12/2010 20:50

"You see we are very much pro state school system - grammar of course, and want our son to learn that there are grammar schools for smart kids and be proud of his years there"

Not sure why you tried him for Eton really. Don't fall into the trap of just wanting to tell people he could have gone to Eton if we'd wanted.

Your son is obviously very bright, but I think you are a bit confused about which system you want him in. Once you make a firm decision about whether its to be public boarding or state grammar then the route follows from there.

Prep then Eton or state grammar years 7-13

sethstarofbethlehemsmum · 16/12/2010 20:34

I don't really understand your hostility to prep schools, given that you're happy with the idea of a private secondary.
My brothers went to a lovely prep school and whilst there was setting from a very early age it was very fluid - eg my younger brother went from bottom to top set in a year.

BigTillyMincepie · 16/12/2010 20:29

I know of a boy who got into Eton on a full scholarship in Y6. This also entitled him to prep school from Y7 till he started boarding at Eton. He went to Westminster, I think and is doing extremely well at Eton now.

His brother who is also extremely bright is at a state comprehensive. It will be interesting how the outcomes differ.

basildonbond · 16/12/2010 20:27

also what makes you think that somewhere like Whitgift would offer your son a 50% scholarship?? yes, they do offer 50% scholarships to a few boys (but it's usually more like 10% to a lot of boys), but the boys who get 50% are academically outstanding, usually have another talent (sport, music etc) and their families are committed to the school - or would you be planning to lie during the interview?

And no 11-18 school would prepare your son for CE - why on earth would they? Hmm

MollieO · 16/12/2010 20:26

There is a separate scholarship for state school boys which afaik is not means tested and which does fund prep for the two years between leaving primary and starting at Eton. Local feeder is St George's which does prep for CE and has a very good record. Is also optional boarding.

Abr1de · 16/12/2010 20:25

Sorry, that should read the pass MARK is high. That is, the average you have to reach across all the papers.

Abr1de · 16/12/2010 20:24

My son did Common Entrance having passed the pre-test for his highly academic private school.

common entrance is quite hard--for good schools the pass rate is high. At French they are working almost at GcSE level. The difference between the Latin at this stage and GcSE is not huge, either.

I would send him to a prep school. You want him up and running when he gets to Eton, not in the low sets because he hasn't covered the same syllabus as the other boys in years seven and eight.

Greenwing · 16/12/2010 20:19

Either Prep School, then Eton OR a different school from 11 and stay there.

I think you should find out more about Prep schools as your prejudice and misinformation can only be based on lack of information, surely? (The name 'Prep' is only because they 'prep'are pupils to enter senior schools - what's wrong with that?)

Most are non-selective and aim to give the broadest, best education possible with huge opportunities for personal development, music, sport and drama in addition to following the Common Entrance/Scholarship syllabus. I wish every child could have such opportunities!

Why plan to send your son to Eton, which costs three times more than an independent day school (where I live Midlands) and then start him off there at a disadvantage? If your son does not follow the Common Entrance, or Common Academic Scholarship syllabus, he will not have studied to such a high level, especially in subjects like French and Latin, even at a school like St Olave's. This will affect him when he begins at the school, not just in passing the entrance test.

I also agree with the poster who said it would be awful to deliberately take a place at St Olave's away from another child who would have stayed until they were 18 and whose parents may not have the finances to make other choices. You will have altered the course of their life!

As I said at the beginning, either Prep School, then Eton OR a different school from 11 and stay there.

Talkinpeace · 16/12/2010 19:53

agree with maria - speak to Eton and see what they suggest.
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