Independent or grammar school

Hi,

I was wondering if, now 5 years on, your experiences had changed and what choice you had made as we are now likely to have to make the choice ? thanks.

Our local ( highly selective and v high achieving) grammar schools have less of a social mix than the ( highly selective and v high achieving) 2 top independent schools. Probably because parents spent their money on independent preps which specialise in getting them through the 11 plus. The independents have quite a generous bursary / assisted places scheme plus scholarships and, crucially, look for potential in each candidate not just raw score.

Independence from government 'latest bright ideas' and ticking of boxes - as lotofkids says - means that the school can set the bar higher and have a more interesting curriculum.

If you can scrape the money from somewhere, choose a good independent.If you can't, then a grammar school is the next best thing ( usually. My friend's DD was discouraged from following her natural inclination towards Art and was miserable.She left after GCSE and is now happy at Art College!)

Lotofkids - are you in hertfordshire area, we are investigating schools at the moment, lot of choice in the area, both state and independent. We have visited a few in the area but dd shows no preference and is not fazed at all by the facilities at the independents ! Maybe then it is not right for her, how do you know !?! Sorry that sounds a bit condescending to her, I mean, if she doesn't recognise the facilities and opportunities, and is not excited by the new clubs and activities on offer then we are not sure she would use them and get full benefit from them.

My DS is at a state grammar school. The social mix is important to us. He's going to have a lot of street smarts as well as academic qualifications, and a handful of mates with an eclectic mix of parents (midwives, builders, nurses, professional musicians, childminders, plumbers, GPs, geologists). Plus I don't like the air of entitlement that hovers over our local indie school.

I turned down a grammar school place for my daughter because she preferred the independent school she had chosen(which offered her a 50% scholarship). Worth every penny. She bounces into school every day, enjoys a wealth of extra-curricular activities, exciting clubs and critical thinking lessons, classes of less than 20 and sometimes 14. The teaching is original, inspiring and not bound by 'ticking boxes' or the lastest government initiative. The school sets its own curriculum, with its own priorities; these really have every child's best interests at heart. My daughter's confidence is being nurtured all the time, particularly through public speaking, LAMDA courses and debating societies. She has lots of friends and the pastoral care in the school is exceptional. Best investment I could make for her education.

I worked in a Grammar and i can tell you it was a fantastic school- you often get brighter kids at the grammar but the class sizes are bigger and there is the advantage of the contacts you can make in some independents for want of a better word.

If money is no object and the independent is a good one, I guess I would go with that option- but as I said the grammar I worked in was amazing and the kids just were so nice and humble which I hear is not always the case at the private schools.

When we were looking @ primaries for our DS1 happended to meet an old friend who is a fellow at an Oxbridge college and was responsible for admissions. He came from a working class background, grammar school, northern city, and always did his absolute utmost to give places to poorer students with potential from state schools, but who would be likley to get a first. Because of his subject, languages, poorer teaching in state schools (of all kinds) meant that with his best will, he could not offer places to people who simply did not have sufficient basic grounding in that subject and who hadn't read widely around it before going to university. I asked him his advice about schooling, and he said that very reluctantly (and to my suprise) that he had to advise me that if we could afford a good independent it would definitely be immeasurably better for the DC if they had the potential to do well academically.
(We ignored that advice as we were offered a place at the local outstanding state primary. When we moved DS to a local high achieving indepdendnet in Y6 the difference in teaching was dramatic, and we have no regrets about not trying him for the local grammar. His friend had a choice between the grammar and an indie, his parents chose the grammar, and are now in the process of scrabbling around to find him a place at an indie )

DS passed for the two local grammars and a selective independent. He's at the independent. We all liked it best out of the three, we can afford it, we have savings, we have family back up - so there was no reason not to go for our favourite, IYSWIM

We get dd's 11+ results this afternoon. The local girls grammar happens to suit her completely so if she passes, that's where she'll go.

I know several families whose children have passed but chosen to send private for a number of reasons. Some down to the sporting facilities on offer, others the pastoral care. Don't know anyone who's done it purely on academic level, probably as the grammars round here are very rigorous.

And I am also anti-GS, despite having gone to one.

I recall an amusing thing I heard:

'The left wing opposed grammar schools because they entrench privilege. The right wing support grammar schools because they entrench privilege'

But sorry, I know this isn't a pro versus anti-grammar school thread! My only caveat about the OP is the faint possibility that, in future, with the table football the LibCons are playing with our education system, it IS possible that the major league unis will have to make lower offers to state school pupils than to private school ones.

Guy, yes that's always amused me too; you get quite a few threads on MN where posters assume that if the school fees go too high, they'll "move to a GS area, that'll show 'em!", as if it's a given that an independently educated DC will always get into GS. The big problem with GSs is that, whatever people say, the other nearby schools are NOT comprehensives, they're SMs.

As for sibling preference policy, again, as others have said, it very much depends on the school, doesn't it? A good friend was told this week her Y6 DS2 in a 'selective prep' will be recommended for the linked higher school though he wouldn't have passed the entrance exam they dropped last year, cos DS1 (now Y8) who did pass that exam got in! Harder economic times, anyone?!

Yes - its very odd that people on here enthuse about the grammar school system on the assumption their own children will qualify - in my post antal group lots of people moved to Bucks for the grammars schools, - how did they know their child's potential @ 6 months old?

Grammar schools are an unmitigated disaster for everone except the minority of children who get into them. And even for them, I'm mot vonvinced that telling a child it's better than its contemporaries at 11 is any more beneficial than telling one it's worse.

More than half of the country does not operate the grammar school system.
Grammar is great for those who get in but the worst schools in the country are secondary moderns - the kids have been told they are failures at age 11.
At least in a comp they have the chance of being moved up or down the streams.
Grammars also have comparatively poor value added because the kids are "crammed" so much to get them in.
I just wish Hampshire schools had sixth forms but that is coming

and on language....
The higher the fees the worse the language.
Choice words from friends who went to very famous and expensive schools

tingletinagle - where do you live (just the region/county). I would love to be somewhere where the secondaries are so good. We have the GS system but as DD is in a state primary I don't know how well she would do against the prep school children.

As always it depends on the school, here we have excellent state comps, state grammars and an independent on every corner.The grammars have cramped dated facilities, they hothouse ( and not even that successfully) and the teaching is dull. I would choose exellent state comp.

If I was to consider independent ( which I woudln't) but if I did I would opt for independent for smaller class sizes and better facilities.

Some areas do have great grammars though.

I have taught in comps, grammars and independents and my job requires me to visit schools of different kinds often,

If I was very rich and would consider independent I would feel uneasy taking a free grammar place when I could pay.

In my opinion, they isn't enough "rough and tumble" in my dd's class of 28 - they are all very proper young ladies who could do with shaking up a bit!

The trouble with thread like this is that people know one grammar school and one independend, and generalize from there.

To echo GrimmaTheNome, it really does depend on what is available to you - and whether sufficient reliable public transport is available to give you a real choice.

As a parent would it be worth packing in your job to do seven years on the school run for instance?

It really does come down to what GS and idependents are available to you. I was a bit suprised by Kangaroos list because it wasn't anything like our experience:

• the 'rough and tumble' of 30 in a class

• bad language heard in the playground

• teachers not lunching with the pupils

• less supervision (seem to have an appropriate amount;too much does them no favours at this age)
• lack of individual approach to her dc's behaviour

Its an 'academic' GS but they get plenty of music, drama (every spare moment at present spent rehearsing for pantomimes or musicals) etc.

Have not read the whole thread, but I know several people who have opted for indies when they had the choice of a grammar. Why would the face that it is free sway you if you have spare cash (as the OP suggested?) In that case you are lucky enough to be able to choose the school best suited to your child, which may well be the indi for a variety of reasons as they are all different!
In hte cases I know the breadth of learning and extra curricular and sports in the iindies, and in some cases location, made them the choice, because they suited those particular children.

yes, but that isn't a sibling policy. If they are oversubscribed they will select on ability.

Top indies of the type Xenia likes may not have a sibling policy, but there are many semi selective indies that do. ie. schools which are not equipped to take a child with severe SN but would take a sibling if they are at least average.

Our 'local' grammar is too far away - 90 min journey each way at least, so not an option, but if it had been and money really was no object I may well have chosen independent for things like music & other extra curriculars, co-edness and their willingness to accommodate children wanting or needing to do things differently from the rest (take different exams or at different times), and flexibility over year groups too.