im so anxious about threats to cut ctc...

lou312505 Me and DH recieve a similar amount of CTC/WTC to you and your DP. What will happen to the likes of us? I know everyones saying that there will be no cuts for families earning under 25k but I'm so worried about the budget. I will be relieved when we know whats happening for sure.

Yes, it was a complicated silly system.

Many many years ago people got a higher tax allowance if they had children. that was removed (it usually went to the man anyway) and child benefit came in which has been cheap and universal and worked well and improtantly when it came out was paid to the mother so even if the husband whether a millionaire or a pauper pissed all his income up the wall the mother got the benefit for the children.

The tax credits are silly and complicated and require people to fill in complex forms and are paid to people who earn too much although I've earned little enough to qualify for one penny of them for which in some senses I feel very grateful.

"We have 3 children under 5, a joint (gross) income of £17k, and a disabled child. We get about £11.5k in CTC/WTC. "

I am 99% sure the Government will not remove credit from anyone under about £26k to £30k a year. There is nothing to fear there. Those credits have helped people stay in work who earn a lowish income like £17k. £13k a year is the full time wage on minimum wage.

Isn't there a 16 hours a week problem when people start to work more they lose too much of these credits? Things like that need to be looked at but it's very hard to simply which is what I would prefer, these areas

I guess we'd be much better off, financially, if I could return to work full time.

Well, we'd be able to afford a bigger house and, tbh, I'd rather live in my tiny 2 up, 2 down and spend these years with my DS.

I have no need for a 50 inch LCD TV. The picture is shite, the sound is shite and next week there'll be something better out anyway.

Plus I'm freeing up a job for someone who wants it. I'm all heart me.

I don't think everyone is at all but I do think we have a heightened sense of entitlement that just didn't exist years ago.I hope families aren't dragged down by this but can't see the tories doing other than look after their own and think old values are going to have to return for those who sadly can least afford it.

These threads are starting to get on my nerves. The issue is that there is a massive misconception around tax credits.

Look at the adverts that were run on the television: They were encouraging you to claim Tax Credits, saying "It's your money..."

Now, people are saying that they are a benefit, intended to stop people running aground in times of trouble.

It just isn't true. They are a means-tested income top-up. Semantics? No. They are not a benefit, only to be applied for if you hit a crisis. The government fully intended every family with an income below £55k to receive money each and every week.

So, to all those people who say that people should consider their finances when deciding whether they can afford more children - what should be considered?

-Earnings
-Outgoings
-Other income.

Other income includes Tax Credits, because the Government advised people to apply for them.

Anyone considering another child would look at their situation, and consider the sources of income available, etc. Tax credits is one of those.

They can change the threshold, and make less people eligible. But don't start pretending the purposes was to avert a crisis, because it wasn't. It was intended to make life easier & top-up incomes.

We have 3 children under 5, a joint (gross) income of £17k, and a disabled child. We get about £11.5k in CTC/WTC.

Things go in cycles yes - it's capitalism unfortunately.

Noddyholder - think you'll find that lots of people DON'T spend on the things you suggest. We certainly don't, especially since having kids. You would think 2 decently paid professional jobs would give us that but unfortunately not.

We have no real credit apart from a car loan. haven't had foreign holiday since we had kids, or any holiday this year. Neither of us has designer ore even very new stuff, we have a modest terrace house. Yes we have 2 cars but only because we both have jobs with 70ml round trip commutes and yes have tried to get ones nearer home but we can't and public transport doesn't go there.

It makes me laugh that people think everyone is living the high life.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with xenia!BUT saving has beconme a bit uncool in our society and all the trappings of tvs cars etc etc are expected somehow aswell as holidays and the latest bloody everything!The line between need and want is so seriously blurred we don't know the differnece anymore.I have had times when I have had more and times when seriously skint but I live the same way mostly and if I really want something unneccesary I WAIT

I don't disagree Xenia. I think that Labour did rest on their laurels somewhat and continued to spend in the same vein they did when they first came to power. That was clearly a mistake.

Unfortunately, our family has no leeway for saving. We manage a couple of months then something conks out and we're back to zero.

However, that clearly wasn't the case with the government and they ought have put something aside in the good times.

There are lots of reasons but most people families nations etc save for a rainy day as you can be sure rainy days come. I don't think Labour did anything like enough saving.

vesela, I wonder where you got that from? Have you read what I said?

I'm assuming you're responding to my post to Xenia where I said "you don't think the worldwide recession had any impact on UK finances then?"

Most people accept that there are a number of reasons why we're in the current financial situation, the recession being one of them. I've never said it was the only one. Xenia herself makes that very same point in her later reply.

Extremes did lead to extremes, that's true.

That is very interesting wubbly. If you look at towns that in the past had an industry it is often true that the public sector is now the biggest employer, often employed to clean up the mess left by mass unemployment.

Wubblybubbly, you don't think the failure to save during the boom years (which Keynes would have said was vital) had any effect?

You don't think the fact that Labour encouraged the economy to be over-reliant on the financial sector (and the public sector) had any effect?

I'm amazed that you can just sit back and blame "the worldwide recession".

It was interesting watching the politics show this morning, talking about public vs private sector.

It's true that up here in the north, something like 1 in 3 jobs are in the public sector. However, the discussion this morning pointed out that, in fact, there is more public spending per head in the South East than the North, however, there is also a much healthier private sector which skews the figures.

The conclusion seemed to be that it's not the amount of public sector jobs in the north that's the problem, it's the lack of private sector employment that makes it look so.

The reasons for that probably do go back to the 80's, when we lost many of our heavy industries, coal mining, ship building, steel works etc. Although huge efforts have been made to help reduce unemployment, the inbalance between public and private investment is clearly still an issue.

There have been many more job losses in the private than public sectior.The only employment growth in the North in the UK and Scotland under Labour has been in public sector jobs.

The reasons for the crash are complicated. We have always had economic cycles. You could argue they are natural corrections just part of the cycle of life. It's a female things almost like menstrual cycles and the earth going round the sun etc and we just have to deal with the ups and downs. We might have paid back more public sector debt when we had the chance but we chose not to and so things are harder now. I think 10% of all tax paid is simply going ton interest on the national debt at the moment.

I am interested though in how to increase incentives to work over claiming benefits. It's been a very difficult issue for many years and you edn up with income groups where too much is taken in tax to make it worthwhile. If we paid everyone over 18 £200 a year regardless of income and earnings and abolished all benefits and state pensions that might work. The lazy or those who couldn't get jobs would have their £200 and those who chose to work at £200 a week would have £400 and there would be little incentive not to work. Anyway it's going to difficult whatever happens (except for people like me but that's a different issue).

Not everyone who works for a bank is earning big money with fat bonuses. We have had pay freezes, no bonuses and little job security for a couple of years now.

Got to agree tink. Public sector pay has been behind inflation for years thus technically you get a pay cut. You get no bonuses. The fact we pay into a pension and have reasonable job security is supposed to compensate for this.

So............it's a triple hit, target CTC, pay freezes/cuts and take away your pension rights.

what gets me the most annoyed at the moment is the blame on public sector workers. i work for the local government and with my mileage included only bring in around 22k a year, I was already informed at the beginning of the year that there would be no increase this year, this is before the coalition government got in, so what they are saying is rubbish on pay freezes for 1 year as in effect I am already on pay freeze.

Does everyone forget the banks were the cause of the recession and they are the private sector, but it seems to me instead of them giving any money back they are patting themselves on the back with large bonuses.

Friends of mine that work in the private secor are earning more than me with yearly bonuses. What do I get Sweet FA, but yet the cost of living is going up yearly if not monthly, and in the budget VAT, NI, probaly petrol ect is going up but I am expected to take a pay freeze for at least another year, lose CTC, Pension reform.

To me where is the fairness (hmm)

or the behaviour of the bankers.

Frankly I am not going to blame Labour. It is the Tories who are choosing THESE cuts. Raise income tax, reclaim all the unpaid business rates in this country, there are other things to do than simply target middle income families, who on paper may seem 'well off' but actually struggle and need their CB and CTC.

BTW boiledegg both me and my DH practically paid our own way through university to train for careers, hence we were not able to earn a decent wage until our mid to late twenties. BOTH of us like our jobs, if one of us has to leave, it is likely the job will not be there in the future. Why should anyone who has deferred a decent salary to train as a professional have to pack it in to free up jobs!

Truth is the Tories are shit scared of cutting benefits to the poor or pissing off the rich by raising taxes too high - instead they find a middle ground they think will work. We will slip into another recession because there will be no spending power and thus no growth. However if it means it hastens this shower out of government quickly I will happily take it for a while.

Interesting take Xenia, you don't think the worldwide recession had any impact on UK finances then?

We probably need to wait for the Chancellor's speech on Tuesday to be sure although may be it's the most leaked budget ever.

Whoever said they hate this government really ought to be blaming the high spend like there's no tomorrow last labour lot who got us into this mess. Most families who are careful with money know you can't spend spend spend. The day of reckoning always comes.

Poverty traps have always been very difficult. The working family tax credit and things like that, childcare cost help for the relatively poor etc were all trying to ensure people might be better of in work than out of it.

By the way none of this is sexist. Is everyone earning much less than their men and ifs o why in 2301! Rhat's amazing. Surely if you earn double your husband and benefits etc change it's more likely the man gives up work than the womrn or do all the women on the thread or most earn pathetic little pin money amounts? If they do why is that? Are they less clever than men, less hard working or do they target richer men for marriage and always marry up?

I have just read in the mail that public sector pay over 18K will be frozen and we will have to pay more to get our pensions.

I think it should be over £25K but other than that I think it is fair enough.

If your self employed, its works on your profits - hence we dont get a penny even though we draw a small wage from the business. I work two days a week for my hubby so have to pay for nursery. SO both children cost me £350 - £400 per month in fees. More than I take in wages.

I feel the money would be more just on helping working parents manage with childcare fees. The money should be paid direct to the carer.

There is far too much emphasis on low income. Even a middle income with both parents working you can still be bad off - as some parents are easily paying £1000 per month in nursery fees. A car and fuel, average mortgage, bills etc no way as there people rich! I would class a high very good combined income realisticly £65k pa. Not £25K.

I've never agreed with just giving more money to low income, it becomes a way of life and not all parents put it towards child welfare (got to question the alcohol/drug problems we have). Some people seem to think their benefits should reflect the same value as someone who is working - how's that fair? Many of us were brought up in the 70's - there wasnt much money about then but we eat well and life was happy.

As much as I do beleive in helping those who want to help themselves I think it should be a short term solution not a way of life forever.

There are more vocational/higher education opportunities with childcare facilities now more than there has ever been but people just want to reply on benefits. My hubby will work 12 hrs 7 days a week if needs be and also a lot of our empoyees are happy to look long hours too.

Actually, watching the bloke from REFORM on The Big Questions this morning, it seems the cut to CTC is possibly just the thin end of the wedge.

Not surprising from a right wing think tank I suppose. More surprising was the audience support for their ideas.