im so anxious about threats to cut ctc...

I couldn't live on 17,000 without my tax credits, I would have to go back to supervising a nightclub (they have been begging me to go back). What tax credits has done for me is enable a career change I was earning a good wage supervising a nightclub and would have been manager by now if I had gone back from maternity leave. However I really don't wanna go back because I wouldn't see my dp, and I quit while pg as it is a dangerous job if there is no female door lady available a trained supervisor has to step in. I quit because I was slower while pg and someone held a broken glass to my neck, dp begged me not to go into work again.

So I am sadly using my tax credits to study at home and get a safer career. Redundancy in my dp work were done according to how many children.

CTC were never meant to be for 'less well off' people though - they were there to encourage people to work FFS! To make it meaningful financially. It's not about entitlement, it's about contribution.

The working tax credit element was for those on lower incomes to support them working but the childcare element was introduced as recognition that childcare IS expensive and to encourage people to work, it is a contribution.

Like many families stuck on benefits who don't find it viable to work, many better off families will find if the CTC and CB is stopped then their childcare costs won't make it worthwhile for both parents to work, or one if lone parent.

remember that you are entitled to subtract any giving, etc that you make from the 'total income'...
whatever your income, a cut will hurt, but those who earn £30K have 1/3 more coming in than my family...
remember also, that (and I know everything is relative) all of us are within the top 5% (30K is top 1%) globally... tinyurl.com/m1lk

Which is probably one of the (many) reasons our economy has become so messed up - it is essentially dependent to a worrying extent upon people consuming stuff they don't need, filling up landfills and getting themselves into hundreds and even thousands of pounds of debt in order to keep industries afloat upon which other people's jobs depend.

headache.

glad i'm not a politician trying to sort all of this out!

shongolo can I just point out, before it becomes urban myth, that no-one in the public sector gets paid according to the number of kids you have either.

You're probably right in that those f us on £40/month ctc wont miss it too much, but add it to the proposed tax on cb (if it happens) vat rises and whatever else they bring on then it starts to become significant.

Whats more it is all very well pontificating about luxuries we dont need. In one sense you are right but these luxuries are also the staples for keeping people in jobs nowadays. There is a whole telecommunications industry that didnt exist on such scale 15years ago.

if people stop being able to buy such things then that means people out of a job, a deepening recession and worsening public finances.

Tourism is alos an industry now. 25- 30 years ago it was the manufacturing base that has now largely disappeared.

so be aware when you lecture about people having only what they need that the consequences of this mindset, for a consumerist economy, could be dire.

Wubblybubbly - please read my post again. I do not call ANYONE chavs. I know all about being in unfortunate circumstances because I have lost my job but, being brought up staunchly working class, I am not going to become reliant on handouts meant for people worse off than me. I am just having a little rant because for the fifth time today I have heard someone saying "it's not worth me working", and not including on this forum. Don't believe in God but I totally agree with your sentiment, BTW.

shongololo, there are lots of people who now rely on tax credits because circumstances outside of their control have meant they cannot work/have to reduce hours/have lost their jobs.

These are people who are/have been working and paying into the system too. They are not 'chavs' as you put it, just ordinary people in unfortunate circumstances.

It can happen to anyone you know. Death, illness, disability, redundancy. The fickle finger of fate is hanging over us all.

There but for the grace of God and all that.

How do you know who NEEDS the CTC or not - surely it depends on number of kids, childcare costs etc. Mortgage costs? Council tax? The cut off is arbitary if the other costs are high.

And sorry I am not slogging my guts out 5 days pw if all I am actually doing is earning to pay for childcare. What is the point? I may as well be a sahm and do my own childcare instead of contributing to the economy through income tax and NI.

CTC were set up to support working parents. Their demise is a kick in the teeth to middle income voters who are traditionally part of the Tory support. I hope people remember this next election.

BTW can we get away from this idea that everyone complaining has all these luxury goods? Aside from a mobile phone - our household has NONE of the things mentioned in this thread.

I'm not sure that a family could manage easily on £17k without tax credits, but it would depend on what you pay each month in rent/gas/elec etc.

The net pay on that figure comes to around £1135.

Assuming our monthly bills, which I would reckon are probably about 'average', then that would leave around £300 each month for food, cleaning and household goods, clothes, days out, haircuts, home and car maintenence.

I've left out mobile phones, any credit repayments, holidays, eating out, nights out, hobbies, magazines, sky tv etc as no doubt such things are deemed a luxury.

I'm not saying it's not doable, but I wonder if I'd bother my arse working 40 hours a week to live like that. I guess it would depend on whether or not there was any prospect of things getting better.

No cuts have been made yet, a lot of this is speculation.

We did not have tax credits until Labour got in and we have now voted them out. I know for some families they are a lifeline, but they were originally meant to encourage people into work and lift others out of poverty. How many of the people criticising their demise on this forum can say they are truly at risk of poverty if they are phased out?

I am sick and fed up of hearing the phrase "if ... it's not worth me working" which is effectively what at least one poster's husband is saying, or threats that people will make it a point to earn no more than £25,000. Benefits are not an automatic entitlement and we all pay for them; lots of us look down on so-called 'chavs' for their attitude to entitlement but some of us behave in exactly the same way.

i dont think CTC is being cut for people earning less than 30k??

Lets face it, if you are on 50K, you really dont NEED the extra CTC.

I think the whole nation needs to get back thinking about NEED vs WANT. The latest games console, the flatscreen TV, the holidays, the mobile phones....these are all luxuries, not NEEDS.

We also have to get a grip about "entitlement" vs "responsibility". We are not "entitled" to have as many children as we like while expecting the state to pay for them. Private sector salaries do not rise according to family numbers, so benefits should not either. You gets your money, you makes your choices, as my old nan used to say.

How will it work for single parents as im on 14k a year and i need tax credits to pay for childcare for my two children while im at work.I have to work full time to cover the costs of my home and to provide my children with things they need.

slushy06 - I absolutely agree with you. I really don't think raising a family on £17k is that much of an impossibility, provided you're prepared to budget/save or go without a few luxuries. Like you, £17k is a decent wage where I live, though I'm sure it wouldn't be great in London.

I'm just a bit aghast at flockwallpaper's comment above!

LMSS I am on 16,000 we have bought a 3bedroomed house (I had always saved half my wages and we had a 30% deposit) We go on holiday once a year, have sky and a few luxeries, good quality food, enough clothes, and money to learn to drive.

We have considered a third because dp is on a trainee wage within 5years it will more than double. I am doing open university and in about 5years will be qualified so we will also have that extra money. We could afford a third without sacrificing much, yes we claim tax credits but If I worked I would take a job that someone who is on full benefits and claiming more than me could have (not that I think there is anything wrong with WM just the reason I don't feel guilty for not working and claiming tax credits). 17,000 is peanuts in London but where I live it is the average wage and we could quite easily afford three dc.

Is £17k really all that crap anyway? I would have thought that you could pay rent, run a small second hand car and feed a few people on £17k - ok, no holidays abroad, no designer clothes, no huge flatscreen tvs etc. But it's hardly a third world scenario!!!

'Why the f**k have three kids when your household income is £17K. Some people need to belt up and take responsibility for themselves.'

Have you never heard of accidents my friend wanted sterilization after her second because she was told she would not bring her child to term and unlikely that another child would live. Her gp would not give her one stating she may regret not having a girl and she was to young. She had a coil fitted she has just given birth to her dd with cerebral palsy . She has now had to give up work is really struggling for money because she has to take her dd for loads of hospital appointment and physio.

Even if it is not a accident perhaps they think other things are more important than money and it is extremely arrogant to assume only you know best. It is easy to look out from paradise and judge others.

Its unfair to say as a sweeping statement that families with lots of children shouldn't have had them if they can't afford them. So many people have so many different circumstances and I know I never planned to have 5 children but thats what I now have. Both my DH and I have residency of the children from our previous marriages so we are a family of 7 but neither of us expected this to be the way our families would be. Maintanance from ex's is very hit and miss and no way could the wages we get support all 5 children, ctc are a major part of our income. Not all larger families are in it for the benefits or intentionally that size.

I am so worried about what will happen next! The company I work for have said that there are going to be redundencies if VAT goes up as they just can't compete with the huge high street shops that have huge amounts of cash behind them and the 'work from home' businessess that aren't VAT reg so cut their prices so hardly any profit is made; between the two they are crippling small busineses. It is so worrying as my husband has just lost his job so I am really not sure what will happen - I really hope that the news on Tuesday is not as bleak as it is being made out to be.

The financial position I was in when I had my (planned) dcs is very different to now.
2 years ago our joint earnings were too much to get even the basic level of tc- which I was told effectively 'replaced' the married mans tax allowance of approx £10 a week.
I was made redundant and now work more hours for virtually the same money. DH is in the construction industry so work has been scarce, 6 months between jobs sometimes and he's not entitled to JSA.
You cannot be expected to decide when to have children based on whether you can guarantee your income for the following 20 years.
Lives change, incomes change and it's not always in your control.
No matter how frugal I am, without ctc, we simply could not have managed.

Blimey - some of you here don't mince your words do you. Barmyarmy for example in opinioning that they need to cut or remove CTC while saying she doesn't need to claim even CB. Talk about "well I'm alright but fuck the rest of you...." Nice!

see www.idrc.ca/en/ev-27520-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html - very interesting publication "Social Policy Reform in Canada".

But even people on a low wage need to match the number of children they have to what they can afford. I would love more - but we can afford one so we have one. Now maybe that is harsh but so maybe people can have 2 and get child benefit/ tax credits - under a certain income - but after that the help from the state has to stop.

People who have never worked aren't the people we're talking about here, are they?

Perhaps I'm getting confused, but I was referring to those people who are working, but earning a poor wage, those people who rely on CTC to top up their earnings so that they can work.

If we're talking about those who've never worked then I think that's a whole other issue.