im so anxious about threats to cut ctc...

cheap immigrants skeleton

To those who think that children should only be a preserve of the rich.
who do you think will look after your grandchildren at nursery, empty your bins or care for you in a nursing home if people on low incomes don't reproduce?
some jobs are essential to the running of society and our collective well being, but paid poorly or not valued at all.
according to the New economics foundation 'a bit rich' report a hospital cleaner on 6 odd quid an hour generates £10 pounds of social value for every £1 he or she earns. according to some on here a person doing this valuable job is a feckless idiot who should not be allowed to have children,because they don't do something well paid and oh so usefull like ooh a city banker perhaps. maybe the 25 billion lost each year by tax avoidance by the super rich might be more worth disaproving of than the sin of claiming tax credits.

I am assuming in calculating TCs the govt had a ballpark figure which they considered offered a decent standard of living and they were worked out to that end so to take them away is effectively forcing many families to live below a comfortable level which is a disgrace

I cannot believe some of the posts on this thread. The government needs to support families, especially those who are trying to survive above poverty, encouraging/supporting young people to give them the best possible start in life can only inspire them to lead our future generations into a thriving economy not dependant on credit culture!
It is a parents responsibility to teach their child about healthy eating/exercise/budgeting/job prospects/education....this does not mean the government should not show its support to those on a low income who are struggling to provide for their family. Tax credits do not give us luxury items like tvs or holidays they give us a chance to teach our children to shop around, eat healthily and value time with our parents....or are we supposed to both work full time and only see our children at bedtime?...Then we could afford all the luxuries...would they be happy children? We lead by example and show our children work hard and value family time, build strong relationships and become well balanced and knowledgable adults.

I felt bullied into returning to work after my first child was born, it is no longer acceptable to be a full time Mother!...teaching your child they ways of the world is now up to childcare providers. As a result I went back when she was 6 months old. Tax credits were the only reason it was financially viable to do so, the high costs of childcare, travel to work etc meant I barely earnt anything by going to work.(my partner works full time....60+ hours a week). As my career progressed I went on to a fulltime Management position.....and struggled to cope emotionally with not being around for my daughter.

I know there is an argument against our benefits system, I agree with much of it, but what about the value of good parenting? We dont live off the government, we work hard, but their support makes it easier to give our children a better start in life.

Circumstances change, sometimes life is hard, sometimes you find yourself needing a bit more help to get by....why should we feel guilty....I want whats best for my children.

Like I said, Chil, we'll see come Tuesday.

"the figures being touted are £24k as a cut off"

From the LD manifesto... and the Tory manifesto said something different. And there is a massive difference between what's the financially prudent thing to do and what's the politically prudent thing to do.

Example.... pre the election, assuming a Tory victory and demands for big spending cuts, civil servants did quite a lot of work on plans to scrap/means-test the universal Winter Fuel Allowance. But the plans were not used. Not because WFA is a fair and affordable system (it isn't) but because the new government are well aware that headlines about 'pensioners condemned to freeze this winter!!!' would be political death.

what a surprise this has come to a 'who and who cannot have children, based on income' thread.

@itsybitsy08. That's not what I said.

To use the same example.... .You declare £24k gross income and you also declare £4k childcare costs. Your TC entitlement is calculated based on your income with the childcare taken off (there is a maximum you can claim for the childcare).... If you declare £24k but you do not declare any childcare costs your TC entitlement is worked out on your earnings with no deductions. If you run that example through here a couple with one child over 1, 24k income, £77/week childcare, you'll find they'd get £72.89/week total tax credits. Remove the childcare and their credits drop to £11.29/week.

I don't know why this seems such a difficult concept.

chil, I guess we'll find out on Tuesday, but the figures being touted are £24k as a cut off.

If, as a family, you're bringing in an income of say £25k (really not a lot of money), for folk with 2 kids over the age of 13 that's almost £90 a week knocked off their income! That's nigh on £400 worse off each month with a net pay of around £1600, a rather dramatic adjustment to make.

Add onto that the potential increases in VAT and NI, the possibility of rising interest rates/pay cuts/freezes, then I think, respresented as a percentage, it's fair to say that those people will take a disproportionate hit.

Making childcare a tax deductible expense - now that's a nice idea...

Chil1234 - sadly you do not deduct the cost of childcare from your annual income before tax!

if you earn 24 grand and pay 4 grand in childcare that does not equal a total of 20 grand to declare - it is still 24 grand!

Only time you would deduct childcare from income was if you are in a salary sacrifice scheme and get childcare vouchers from your employer - which is subject to limitations and you then may not qualify for the childcare elemet of ctc!

If you do this you also need to tell tax credits and send in all your proof - wage slips before and after scheme, contract before and after etc....

Fontella, I don't think any reasonable person would think for a milisecond that you were a sponger. I have my own business too and I know the ups and downs of it all. In fact more people with your work ethic is what the country needs to get out of the current mess. The main problem with the tax credit system is that despite all the long forms to be filled in, it cannot discriminate between people like yourself and those that just want to sit back and have funding for a certain lifestyle.

Ronshar I was trying to say that some people limit themselves to 1 or 2 but then don't feel they are subsidising those with 4. There are lots of reasons to stop at 2.
OTOH my BIL does think he is subsidising those on benefits. He earns about 40G when you take into his company car, phone and laptop. They receive the family payment of 10 a week per child. He has boasted many a time that his tax payments a month are more then my DP's wage. Always with a smug 'I am better then you' smile.

Boiledegg you didn't offend me, I'm not ashamed of my 'huge' CTC payment, most of it is to cover our disabled son. It isn't wasted on holidays or flat screens and we don't have expensive vices to pay for.

Yes nessmay, I too worked for 20 years before I had my kids paying tax and insurance, and I continue to pay tax. I have worked for myself since the day my kids were born - self employed as there was no childcare where I lived, and no partner or family around to look after the kids or share the burden.

So I got off my arse, and set up my own business and earned my own living working from home. I get no maternity leave, no paid holidays, no sick pay, no pension. If I work, I get paid that's it, and believe me I work. But if the work isn't coming in there's not a hell of a lot I can do about it other than canvass for work and keep everything crossed that things pick up. Oh I know - get a job. Over 50, self employed for 15+ years, 2 kids still in full-time education, no car - I'm a real prospect for an employer. That's why I'm trying to get a teaching qualification by going to college at night - it's the one job I know where I won't be discriminated against because of my age and circumstances.

I've cleaned pub toilets before now, and will do so again if I have to .. but the bottom line is I can't survive without TC and I am not going to be made to feel like a sponger or criminal simply because I am obliged to claim it.

I'm amazed too that someone on £45,000 can receive tax credits. I'd like to think my manager who receives the £40 a month or whatever it is spends it on his childen eg school trips, outings etc rather than on broadband or meals out. I hate to think of people who can survive very well without tax credits claiming and 'wasting' the money. I know legally they may be entitled, but morally I think it is wrong.

@wubblybbbly. How does bringing down the upper limit for CTC qualification disproportionately affect the working poor? I don't understand that. If anyone is affected by that particular move it's the 'working middle-income-earner' if you can call them that.

The tax credit element of the payout for people in that £30k-ish to £55k bracket is the basic £500-odd per year. That's what will be saved if the ceiling came down as far as £30k and that's what the families would lose. Now £40 a month is not to be sneezed at but neither is it a life or death amount of money to most middle-income families. Whereas if the lower-income family was to lose £40 a month it's potentially a disaster.

So I think any government is going to go for the low-hanging branches first ie. those families on £50k or £40k and say.. 'no more CTC for you, sorry' ... knowing there will not be marches on Downing Street and soup kitchens set up as a result. If they were to wade in and savage the incomes of poor families that would be political suicide.

notjustapuppymum

You CHOSE to have children, you CHOSE the level of your mortgage, you CHOSE what career paths to take...

Lots of people don't start out at the same level as everybody else though. They have limited choices. They come from sink estates or met someone that screwed their life up, got into debt etc..

What would happen if your partner left you? Yes, you would have a job, but possibly not one that meets the level of income you would be able to live on. Then you would have to top up your income with tax credits, and that is what tax credits are really, top ups to help people with the cost of children. Children, that if the majority of people get the chance, will bring up to become decent, tax paying, members of society.

We don't expect to get much help from the government! I mean, I've only worked for 10 years paying tax and national insurance so other people can claim, so I'll just go on Maternity leave for a year and get my minimum SMP. DH and I have saved for about 3 years putting money aside so we can pay the mortgage when we have a child. I don't work in public service so get the minimum SMP, I have a friend who works for the government and she'll get 6 months full pay, but that's by the by!

I'll then go back to work after a year and start paying tax again, I sincerely hope some of you can enjoy my hard work

But you know what, I wouldn't have it any other way because I come from a hard working family, have been taught that I am not owed anything and that you need to work hard in this life to support your self and your family. Hopefully my child will feel the same!

I agree that there are plenty of people exploiting the system. That has always been the case and if this government can eradicate then, then all the better. Incredulous to hear that someone on £45,000 a year gets TC?

My income is a fraction of that and I know for example, that I qualify for help with my rent and council tax but I just can't bring myself to go and claim for it. It feels like I've failed. The thought of filling out the forms, going to the rates office - I just can't face it. My kids have also never had free school meals or any of that, and I was quite shocked one day at the school gates when a teacher asked the group of parents waiting, who claimed free school meals (as she had some paperwork to hand out) and a whole bunch of women put their hands up. Women who I know are miles better off than I am.

At least with TC you are able to retain a bit of dignity. I am scrupulously honest when supplying details of my self-employed income, never 'estimate' as you are allowed to do, but always do my accounts before supplying my income figure so I know it's accurate and there is no danger of over/under payment. They then advise me of what I will receive - they tell me.

Although it can still be considered 'benefits' it does at least allow me to retain a bit of self respect. I am working, but my income at the moment isn't enough for us to survive. TC makes survival possible.

The whole idea behind tax credits was to help people on benefits back into work. The same with the minimum wage.

I personally believe that it is the responsiblility of government to ensure that the people in the country have the opportunity to provide for their families and a decent standard of living. What else are they for?

My DH earns £30k, I'm a SAHM, so we'll no doubt lose our CTC of £40 a month. I can live with that. We're used to scraping by. No we don't have any of the things you've listed, ronshar, other than 2 cars, both over 10 years old. My DH needs his for work, it's part of his job to travel from site to site. I need my car to get to hospital appointments, we don't live on a bus route. Even if I walked the 20 minutes to the nearest bus stop it would still cost me over £10 a week in bus fares, just to get to hospital.

What really pisses me off with all the cuts that are being touted is that they disproportionately affect the working poor with children. I don't necessarily include our family in that, we're okay, for now.

Stretch how do you know it hasn't?

But that's the point, if life 'takes you up the arse' as you so eloquently put it, then you use benefits to help you out of that situation.

You don't use them as a long term means to live by.

There has been a lot of work done on how much money people realistically need to have a decent standard of living. I'm thinking in particular of the Joseph Rowntree foundation who published research on what constitutes a luxury item (eg games console, 42 inch tv)versus essential household items (e.g washing machine).

I don't think people should be using tax credits to fund holidays (and I do know people who do this) but that's my opinion. I'd rather a single parent struggling to bring up children received enough benefits to have a decent standard of living.

Few people get loads of tax credits that should say