Dave's cuts are going be deep and they will hurt

Riven I hope mto God you're joking about pensions, I am as sick of seeing my aprents take knovks after a lifetime of saving as I am of our sit; they saved every penny- no house, no car, no foreign hols- and their pension fund collapsed. it's surely not a case of don't hit this vulnerable person... but quick over there, get that one?

'SMA, but surely if the loopholes were tightened up, and everyone was strongly encouraged to take more personal and social responsibility for their own families, and taking work that's available, even if it isn't very inspiring, then mad old men like that would have less to get frustrated/abusive about about!

See I hear that a lot

and I agree somewhat

But it still doesn't mean I am a valid target does it?

I used to work with famillies where many were genrationally claiming: it wasn't purely through laziness or choice, they were complex and the situations that got them tehre needed taking apart brick by brick- you could thrust them into work but most would be unemployable tbh. in fact many did work, a week here, 3 days there- always their cards and a back door ASAP.

I am beyond sick of taking flack for other people's messes; of people saying 'then claiming wouldn't be acceptable...' I am acceptable. My sons are acceptable. They are not to be shoved into a corner with a label saying 'financially invalid'.

I've workd two jobs at once and loved it; so has DH. We paid into this thing called NI for 40 yaers between us. We are not fecking unacceptable, we are normal decent human beings with as much of a need for dignity and peace as anyone else.

We lost our home and didn't complain. We moved to Wales in search of progression and lost all family help (which is important with disabled kids) adn did not wince. We've taken hit after hit, given everything we can and now we are increasingly seen as - what? Less, I guess is the word.

Yes - and DESPITE this we are STILL the 7th biggest manufacturing country in the world

(I don't think this is a particularly important or necessarily relevant statistic - it's just quite a fun one )

The UK is the 7th biggest manufacturing country in the world

ah, but during the last ten years it has grown at an annual 1% (ie less than inflation, net decrease therefore) - it fell from the 1# position sometime in the 20th C and is continuing to fall (mfacturing hit particularly hard currently) . although i think people are usually referring to heavy-industry mafacturing....when they make comments like that (and this has been in decline, and many of the long-term unemployed are from that variety of job)

I think cutting expensive and yet unused defence spending is the way forward. I just do not see the point in Trident. Nuclear deterrent? If someone wants to go nuclear on the UK the fact it can blast them back isn't really going to deter them. And military nuclear waste costs a bundle to decommission, store, keep from killing us all, whatever.

I haven't heard a convincing argument for this kind of spending yet (and I have been listening).

So the government has to decide what kind of country it wants: one that takes care of things at home (with health care, education, social programs) or one that looks like a big shot on the world stage. I think the latter is the wrong choice.

Just to lighten the mood cameron speech

I think programmes like Big Brother and POP Idol etc plus spiralling house prices esp at the lower end have bred a nation of average joes who think big tvs jeeps etc are their divine right and a lifestyle akin th that of cut price Beckhams is the way we 'all' live now.It is time for this BS to stop for a start and a return to a more restrained lifestyle and a cut yopur coat according to your cloth mentality.Obviously I hope those most in need are spared but the rest of us will have to tighten our belts and get on with it.

Sorry - 6th in 2008.

investing.curiouscatblog.net/2009/10/13/data-on-the-largest-manufacturing-countries-in-2008/

Thecoalitionneedsyou - yes, absolutely. It helped create a very good working relationship when I was working in a certain Caribbean country. DfID, FCO and law enforcement agencies worked very closely together. DfID were always the only ones with any money!

Everyone else - The UK is the 7th biggest manufacturing country in the world.

strandedatsea - Aid is also a Foreign Policy tool.

Nuttybear - that's a wholly different question.

OK I am no expert but in answer to "why not cut all international aid" I will attempt some sort of an answer.

International aid these days isn't just about charity. We live in a Global economy and by helping others, we help ourselves.If you focus the aid properly, and look at things like creating employment opportunities in (eg) Bangladesh, you are helping them on a long-term path out of dependency. (A bit like helping people on benefits get a job). This will, in theory, lead to less immigration into our country, as well as, in theory, these countries contributing more to the global economy.

There are other things international aid can do which isn't just about throwing away our cash. Eg in the Caribbean and south America, the fewer desperate people there are, the fewer people will be tempted to smuggle drugs in to the UK (small example, but one I do at least know something about).

We also have commitments to the UN in the form of the Millennium Goals, on things like reducing infant mortality and primary education. It would be a sad day when we decided we didn't have enough money to help those most in need in the world.

Like I said I am no expert and very rusty having been out of the workforce for five years, so please feel free to challenge what I have said. There are people on here that sound far more knowledgeable than I.

No need to stop overseas aid though, just to stop government funded aid. Individuals are free to donate as they wish, surely this is better?

Coalition But are the right people getting the aid

France and germany made it so hard to make someone unemployed, that manafacturers are very reluctant to hire (though also very reluctant to close a French/ german workplace) - both had high unemployment even during the boom - they protected their existing manafacturing bases, but at a cost.

Oh, and there is an obvious appeal in the idea of cutting unnecessary layers of management. Thing is, that makes more people unemployed and depending on benefits and not contributing as much in tax revenue. Vicious ruddy circle.

Mind you, apparently Tesco manages on only seven layers - just six layers between a shelf-stacker and Terry Leahy. If true that's quite impressive for such a big firm. Whatever you think of their ethics.

Cappster, obv. I mean SUBSIDIES not funding. If an event can't be self supporting through ticket sales etc then I don't see why the taxpayer should fund it.

I'm in a choir, we're a big one with a full orchestra for performances and we're entirely self funded through ticket sales and other fund raisers (eg as a will writer, I give a donation to the fund for every member of the choir I write a will for).

It's not essential to be going cap in hand to the taxpayer.

England - there are, however, some manufacturing industries doing well here. Just saying 'give up on manufacturing' is dangerous and far too rough and ready. Pharmaceuticals, for instance. Japanese-owned car manufacturers weren't doing too badly before the recession. And most other European nations have managed to retain a manufacturing base - why can't we do as the French and Germans do?

Even if outsourcing is inevitable (and as a nation we should be arguing in international bodies about wages and workplace safety in developing countries - scandalous if we are merely exporting slavery) the knowledge, the strategic decisions and development can all be done by UK firms or the UK arm of manufacturing firms.

Because they need the money more than we do.