am I alone in being very heartened that the alquaida operative is not being deported?

I don't understand about the threat of torture. Who would be inflicting torture?

"ooojimaflip" Is that Bill Hicks?

Um, I think you're out of your mind. And I am a Guardian reader and (former) member of Amnesty International!

Sorry, I don't care about what would happen to him back home in Pakistan.

He should have thought about that before he decided it was all right to hurt people here.

(Former Amnesty member.)

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Cool I think the report was that they are still considered a danger. You are right though if the process and evidence is not transparent then why should we believe them.

Still every society needs a bogyman be it god, the state or terrorism. Fear has always kept the proles in line.

Didn't you just holiday in the States Sophable?
How do you feel about accepting the hospitality and spending your money in such a country?

They are heartless old meanies too aren't they when it comes to blameless little brown men?

Onagar, you put it so succintly here and demonstrate this to be an utterly illogical argument.

'Are we going to detain tourists visiting here from Pakistan and prevent them returning home?
Surely they too are at risk of torture back home so we should force them to stay here for their own good. '

As for you Coolfonz, your naivity is either touching or utterly frightening.
I can't quite decide yet.

Good ole' British justice eh?

Good lord, scratch a few liberals and what do you get? Frightened idiots who adhere to everything the state tells them to.

These guys went to court and were acquitted.

What is it about that you do not get?

They were acquitted, they were found guilty of some visa breaches. There are also a dozen of them...not one...

They were acquitted like a lot of other people arrested under terrorism laws. The Manchester kebab shop owners, the guys in Forest Gate one of whom was shot...the ricin plot...Jean Charles de Menezes had intelligence against him, they all had intelligence against them, it was all rubbish...what intelligence did Mi5 have against the 7/7 bombers, fuck all...

How do you know the courts were wrong? How do you know Mi5 are correct? You don't have a clue.

You guys really prove that all the state needs to do is leak nice stories to the media and people lap it up.

Oh we didn't totally fuck up again, we have secret evidence`.

Unbelievable.

The reason these guys can't be deported is because the British state accused them of being terrorists without any evidence. If there was even the remotest of evidence they would be in jail. There isn't any evidence they wanted to blow people up, which is why they were acquitted.

This case is much more sinister, it is about allowing the security services to prosecute people WITHOUT SHOWING EVIDENCE TO THE DEFENCE. Chucking out centuries of legal principle.

And you halfwits are buying it...

Really embarrassing yourselves, I bet you were all punching the air the day De Menezes was shot yeah we got one!!

I'm kind of on your side too Soph.

Not exactly heartened but don't see that making a martyr of him is going to help.

Being a bleeding heart liberal too I'm not sure we do have the right to feel that safe when we are at war? If we are killing foreigners in foreign lands then won't they or their allies try to attack us at home?

And of course I'm not saying that is right but surely war can't be one sided?

This idea that we must protect someone (even terrorists) from their own countries legal system is fascinating.

Are we going to detain tourists visiting here from Pakistan and prevent them returning home?
Surely they too are at risk of torture back home so we should force them to stay here for their own good.

mmmm maybe dangerous BUT certainly a danger that would allow me to sleep soundly at night the Danger we all face if we don't give better support to the SS to do their job is far more serious

well sophable, don't say you haven't always secretly yearned to be stuck in a lift with me

Seems Greeny and Coolfonz broadly share your opinion (apologies if I've left anyone else out) and almost everyone else disagrees - so you are not quite alone in being very heartened.

oops should of read don't THEY not WE

I am amazed anyone who plots an act of terrorism against a country can then be afforded asylum in the very place he wishes to destroy.
Does that make me a bad person?

The country MUST puT some trust in the SS at the moment they are just as bound by beaurocracy as every other government and civil service dept. Some would require tweaking & exemption to law & accountability after the fact. Allow them to do their job, yes they must be accountable but when it prevents them protecting the nation something is wrong.

& Sophable, if they were just blowing themselves up to make a point i'm sure we wouldn't all feel so strongly BUT they want to blow US up don't we.
My basic HR surely should allow my government & legal system to protect me as a British Citizen first & foremost

sophable I was injured in a terrorist attack on my way to work in London. Foolishly I thought I lived in a country that was safe. Unfortunately I have since acquired rather too much knowledge on the threats that surround us on a daily basis and just how hard our security forces are working to protect us. I would rather not be in that position. I would love to be able to pontificate like you but I can no longer do that. Once real life is affected your views on what is right can change.Maybe that makes me a lesser person but I find today's decision completely skewed.

The rules are that we don't deport people to countries where we believe that they will be tortured. So it is obviously a good thing he has not been deported as it shows the legal system is operating correctly.

If you dissaprove then what needs to happen is a change to the law, change Pakistan, or to our opinion of Pakistan.

If you want to change the law, you either need to say torture is ok (unlikely to sell this one despite 7 series of 24), is a price worth paying (more salable, but morally dubious), or preventable (best option - but unlikely to actually be carried out).

We are already trying to change Pakistan, as are a lot of Pakistanis - but I don't think it's going to change any time very soon.

Or we can just pretend that torture doesn't happen in Pakistan - this is not likely to be a sustainable position.

I think we will end up deporting people, but then paying to protect them in the countries we send them back to.

But Prolesworth, the only reason they weren't caught red handed was because the police had to arrest them earlier than planned because of the leak from the Home Office/who ever it was who was photographed with the dossier.

'mumblechum it's not about him, it's about us, and our society.'

that he wants to annihilate.

if he manages to complete a mission that sees people killed here, will you be heartened then?

yes, i know US/UK forces are responsible for many deaths in the Middle East, but two wrongs don't make a right.