Lefties 9: This will succeed through its success

Oh, I don't know, Beachcomber. I agree it doesn't sound lovely (fat and complascent wails coming from the entitled,), but I think people's demands for a comfortable life can sometimes be a wonderful force for change. I think I worry more about the depression of expectations, and how the benefits thing is used to divide people, and pitch people against each other by way of their (perceived) interests. And lastly, I hate the discourse that the life of the unemployed must be reduced to the most joyless existence possible.

What's wrong with thinking that pleasure in this life should be available to all? i certainly wish it for all of the world's population.

Prolesworth - I want to recommend "When the Lights Went Out" to you. It has a slightly dodgy bit at the end, but the majority of the book is a kind of re-vitalisation of a period when wealth distribution was a part of the discussion in mainstream politics. I might post a considered sort of reflection (on the dodgy bit) at a later date ...

DDS definitely adorable and oh so French and Scottish at the same time (indulgence alert).

"Immigration/benefit stuff is scary but complicated. Shouldn't ever be presented as black and white."

'Twas this that was crass.

Anyway glad to see thread moving agian.

Agree that benefit envy is also scary. As is the whole entitlement thing generally IMO.

I keep reading/hearing things (not necessarily on MN) about entitlement but I'm a bit how the sense of entitlement seems to be just about everywhere.

WARNING - STUPID GENERALISATIONS ABOUT TO FOLLOW.

Seems to me the 'entitlement' sterotype can be applied to all/any section of society, of which we all belong to one, therefore, I'm including myself in this, of course.

1. Rich as fuck, Cameron/Osborne types whose sense of entitlement goes so far that they actually think they are the best people to run the country (OK modern day media has a lot to blame for here too, in that these people actually got elected).

1. The middle classes who think that a 3 bed semi with central heating and constant hot water plus the odd takeaway and a car that starts in the morning are BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. Mega sense of entitlement cos they work hard and think they deserve their privileged position on the basis of what exactly? (I'm one of you before you get on you're high horse, c'mon we're OK really and I'm betting that being in France where salaries are lower, DH and I earn less than our UK equivalents). We try not to feel entitled but of course we do because of being told all the time that 'we are worth it' and 'doing the right thing'.

1. The non working poor who may not have a substantial current reason to be non working, but probably have historical reasons like being second or third generation unemployed. I think people like this are the least of our worries in terms of actual cash/cost but worrisome because we need to give their kids hope, training and jobs so they can move forward. (tricky one this).

Overall sense though is that apart from the working poor, everybody seems to have a well developed sense of entitlement.

Ok have had a mid week glass of wine that may have led me to speak bullshit so am ready for flaming....

Prolesworth I know abolishing hereditary peers was a Labour policy, but it was only a dream that anyone in this country will really do it. Sorry, am a bit negative. Was brought up to be fiercely republican.

LeninGrad. Vince Cable is the Business Secretary. (Lord Mandelson)
It is a good job we do not own a lot of properties then, we could never get rid of them. John McCain would be in trouble, if you remember the US elections

Ewe - where are you going to do PP? I was looking at doing it. LSE is pricey, isn't it?

Proleworth - I think disseminate your socks off, critical mass of ideas 'n' all.

Taffettacat - I googled the article . at twojobs Teresa with her remarkable shoes. But it was a sobering read, wasn't it?

dh says that the dept for children,families & schools has split into education again.So much for joined up working

She has indeed ruled herself out gingercat, just hoping she might change her mind!

The living wage thing is interesting, why have a minimum wage that in parts of the country doesn't reflect the living costs? I know regional minimum wages would cause problems and not really sure what the solution is.

I just think that it's all a vicious circle, the minimum wage is too low so we have tax credits/housing benefit to enable people to survive, which is great that these people are supported but it means that the state is subsidises the salaries when in fact the employers should be paying a living wage. The welfare state enable employers to pay less by topping it up but equally if the tax credit system wasn't there people would work for anything.

This is apparently an interesting read on this kind of discussion but I am too tight to buy it although am doing public policy next year at uni so may be able to get my hands on it.

taffettacat - no! I'm a lowly housewife in London with no career! But I shall go google if you think I'm going to like it.

Is it going to cheer me up?

(I know it won't - I'm just joking! )

Living wage + massively more wealth distribution than we saw under the last Labour government + a shift in public consciousness that sees paying people off the books becoming as unacceptable as drink driving (!)

Point two worries me - and brings me to my horrible fear that GB was deemed too unacceptably left for the right-wing in this country. But that's my post-Kinnock self's secret, crawling fears rising to the surface again. It used to be an acceptable thought in mainstream politics ... .

Sorry that was very crass - how linguistically brainwashed we are.

Ah! I see you were saying EM is saying that the right-wing scare-mongering, rather than immigration itself, has had an effect on the working class. Fair enough.

I do wonder how they are going to deal with that. What are my worries? It's a really complicated issue, and I wonder how much it gets flattened in the public spaces. And I really worry that any discussion of it by the Left runs the risk of legitimating something that can descend into racism, and divisiveness.

So, hmmm, I suppose just stand back and watch how it's dealt with.

Re. benefit envy - have you noticed the flowering of threads on mn inciting b.e.-based outrage at middle class recipients of benefit envy. I'm finding it interesting.

Sorry nowt to do with all this but am listening to my DDs (3 and 6) singing Frere Jaques together in their bunk beds and it is the cutest, Frenchist thing you could imagine.

Immigration/benefit stuff is scary but complicated. Shouldn't ever be presented as black and white.

Ed does talk sense but I need to see him giving a speech I think before I can have much of an opinion on him.

Immigration is, indeed v. v. tricky. Did you read that report about a month ago suggesting that, in the main it is areas that haven't experienced immigration significantly (with two exceptions) that get most vexed? Indicating that so much of the fear around immigration is just that - fear.

Which isn't to say that it's not a real issue for working class. And will be more so if globalisation goes in the direction it's expected to go in. (I'm expecting claig to turn up now!) I'm out as being pro-Open Borders but I have friends who aren't, and they're thoughtful people.

Benefit envy just scares me.

Beachcomber - indeed re. news story.

prolesworth - yes to living wage but have you noticed he's nodding to immigration fears and benefit envy?