Anyone else fearful that the 5% pay cut given to Cabinet ministers will be passed down to all public sector workers?

I wonder what the difference in averages would be if all the perks - pensions, private healthcare, etc were factored in. ie what the jobs are really worth.

scaryteacher many people working for private companies had final salary pension schemes that just shut, they were transferred to money purchase schemes for the remainder of their service.

Anyway.

I had a bit of a row about this with a friend the other day. There are some public sector roles and some private sector roles that pay well, and pay badly.

Statistically however the average wage in the public sector is higher (certainly when I was looking for a part time admin job recently the public sector were paying a lot more) and many of the positions do still have these fantastic pensions.

People in the public sector who are in final salary schemes need to understand that their pensions schemes are worth up to 25% of their salary being put away each year. I mean forget bonuses - I know hardly anyone in teh private sector who has had annual perks adding up to that amount. Meanwhile in the private sector, there is no compulsion for the employer to pay anything. In fact if I join my employer pension scheme I will actually lose 1% of my contributions to admin costs. That is not unusual.

What I would like to see is parity. Apart from the top bods, all the pensions in the private sector are money purchase, often with no employer conts. In the public sector, many have guaranteed final salary schemes. Combined with better wages.

I would like to see a situation where everyone who worked was enabled to retire on a decent pension. At the moment that is not happening and people are understandably a bit naffed off.

FYI DH works in the public sector and gets a guaranteed final salary pension so I am taking about changing something that would affect us IYSWIM.

Loving the way someone upthread said "oh yes the difference between public and private sector pay is skewed - because look if you take all "traditionally female roles" low paid people out of the private sector average, then people in the private sector earn much more than in the public sector".

Sorry but that's rubbish.

The public sector has many "low paid traditionally female " roles too.

You can't just cut swathes of people out of the equation if they don't suit your argument.

People who work in the hospitality industry etc are also people who have living costs, families etc, why should they be ignored.

'I have no union to protect me. I could arrive at work and be told that I am not longer needed.' Neither does my dh who is public sector as unions are not allowed in his part of the public sector. There are already rumblings about redundancies, and his part of the public sector are not entitled to redundancy pay, or so one website says. First I'd heard of it!

I think it is unfair to suggest stopping final salary pension schemes if people have been paying into one. There should be a point at which a new pension scheme is introduced, and the old one is closed except to existing members who have the option to move if they want. The old scheme will eventually wind down as those claiming the pension and their spouses die, so eventually no further liability.

Nymphadora - that is a hard question. Just because it is hard it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It's hard because first we have to decide what Social Services are FOR. This is something we don't bother to do in far too many areas of government (and the private sector for that matter). So, let's say, for the sake of argument, that Social Services is there to protect for harm those who cannot protect themselves. So the overall target needs to be less harm to those unable to protect themselves. That needs to be the senior managers objective. So the problem then is how do you measure that? Unless you have some way of doing so you have no idea if you are being succesfull or not.

JD - agree with some of your suggestions. Having my pay frozen wouldn't make much difference as rises are below rate of inflation anyway. Obviously I would not want to see final salary pension scrapped. This is a perk (one of few in the public sector). Without it, I think there will be problems with recruitment and retention. It helps to offset low pay and poor working conditions.

Isn't it just a 5% "cut" on their Ministerial pay? So, they keep their MP's salary but the Ministerial pay (which they have yet to receive) will just be 5% less than they thought they were going to get. Not quite the same as a 5% pay cut.

Apologies if this has already been said

How do you impose a bonus for 'achievements' in departments such as Social Services?

Maybe, but most projects fail for the same reasons and I would be if these reasons where different. When your firm's survival depends on this it focus's the mind. Projects fail because:

Lack of User Involvement
Long or Unrealistic Time Scales
Poor or No Requirements
Scope Creep
No Change Control System
Poor Testing

jollydiane the mudslinging comment wasn't aimed at you. In fact it wasn't aimed at any particular poster today - it just seems generally there is a private v public sector slanging match going on and I don't think it helps.

Where do your views around public sector IT projects come from? I would be very careful forming views from stuff you read in the media.

I do hope you don't think I was mud slinging. It is true we don't understand enough about how each other works. I have no union to protect me. I could arrive at work and be told that I am not longer needed.

My companies could not run IT projects like the public sector appear to.

people wouldn't mind sacrificing things for the greater good but we aren't blind to the super rich and their spawn. it's shoved in our faces all the time

Public Sector here, DH too.

DH regularly works 17 hour days, no overtime payments whatsoever, TOIL not a right, so he takes about 4 days off a year in leiu of extra hours.

I regularly work 40+ hours a week, no overtime for me either. Have to balance home and work more than DH due to young children.

Average Public Sector pension is £7000 per annum, and this includes high earners. Average Public Sector pension excluding high earners is below £5000 per annum.

1% pay rise for last 3 years - below inflation so in reality a cut.

No slacking where I work either, large cuts in workforce over the last 5 years, but no cut in workload. We are already approx 20% down on staff since 2005, more cuts this year - already looking at a further 10% - 15% under Labour, no idea what will happen now we have the Con-Dems.

We really need to stop the public/private sector mud slinging. We are all having it hard, and nobody deserves it, not the private sector or the public sector. Don't let the politicians set us against each other.

What makes you think that the private sector has got pay raises?

We cannot ignore the deficit. We really can't.

Very few private sectors firms can afford to pay for final salary pensions so in a way that gap is already very wide. Nobody wants cuts but they have to come.

Well most police officers I know don't take advantage of free travel anyway and they don't claim most of their overtime

And freeze public sector pay? So th gap between public sector pay and private sector for some things widens and we lose people? great idea

1. Freeze public sector pay for 2 years
2. Have a bonus system. That way staff are rewarded for achievements but it will not increase the pension liability or future salary budget
3. Stop final salary pensions for all staff.
4. Have a flexible benefit system so some staff can sacrifice salary if they want more holiday for example
5. Police should not get free travel on the trains
6. Police should be salaried and not able to claim overtime until at least 10 hours have been work. This is normal in the private sector. Most of my team stay until the job is done and do not claim overtime.
7. All public sector projects must have agreed success and failure strategy. Any new project should be prototyped with actual users before it is rolled out. The NHS computer system is just embarrassing
8. Ask staff what makes life difficult, time consuming. All the best ideas come from the bottom up.

So let me test my suggestions on cutting waste. Ready... deep breath public sector workers.

Ladybiscuit - I don't know anyone that has it cushy like your friends in our part of the public sector - and if there were they wouldn't last long!

most people I know work beyond their standard hours, work from home evening and weekends, rarely take a lunch break, etc etc and this is because we are committed to our work. the car park is always full by 8am and still half full at 7pm when the building closes.

NeonCupCakes - The problem is that adjusting our expectations and taking a realistic attitude to the NHS requires a cultural change both within and without the NHS. Which will not be quick or easy. 10% cuts across the board are quick fixes that are always going to do more harm than targeted ones. But they are probably inevitable, and they might at least provide some pressure on the organisation to start addressing some of the systemic issues.