Which is more important now: political reform or the economy?

Coolfonz, in my opinion you're nearly correct. The problem is you are fixated on the right. You've swallowed the line. Both left wing and right wing are all just a part of the elite, they are two sides of the same coin.

agree with this
"Any idiot could have seen the crash coming because of banks' crazy speculation and lending policies and the complete lack of regulation"

so why didn't Brown see it?

Claig - Labour/Tory you are all just part of a right wing elite that control the state. War criminals, thugs, killers, torturers, assassins...

Mob rule, no, that is what we have now. I'm a democrat, ordinary people controlling every aspect of their own lives as much as they can.

Democracy is scary isn't it? You might have to take responsibility for yourself and your neighbours too. Even ones you don't like.

There is no such thing as family, only individuals in society.

unfortunately we live in the real world, and like it or not the markets have huge power, as Coolfonz says. Fred the Shred was one of Brown's pals, knighted by Labour for his services to banking. Denis Healey went cap in hand to the IMF and gratefully accepted their help. Tony, Gordon, Peter and all the rest listen very carefully to what the markets say. They know that they can't just throw the toys out of the pram.

no, the librals can't decide to go with labour - well they can, but they can't do it alone as they still won't have enough seats. So they will have to try to incorporate all the other parties - the other 28 seats, in order to make it a majority. And with so many different parties it will not be a stable coalition.

Realistically the only option is for either a lib/con coalition, or a conservative minority government with a probable election in the autumn.

'Oh I see, we're only supposed to look at this from the point of view of the markets are we?' - yes, that does appear to be the long and the short of it.

"Ordinary people, even you right wingers on this thread, would control their streets, counties, countries, the planet, far better than political gangs, fiscal thugs and all their apparatchiks."

that's why we voted Labour out

The wisdom of the crowd... Mob rule?

Elections are not some be all and end all, they are a favour power gives us, they are the very bare minimum we are allowed. People crawl about on their knees thankful they are allowed to vote for one set of thugs or another every X years. Servility is a fucking disease.

Ordinary people, even you right wingers on this thread, would control their streets, counties, countries, the planet, far better than political gangs, fiscal thugs and all their apparatchiks.

The wisdom of the crowd etc...

They could certainly do both at the same time. But the question is will the Tories allow it? If the Tories insist that they do not want electoral reform, the Liberals have to decide which is more important, the economy or PR. I think they will choose the economy in the national interest, and may unfortunately ditch PR. It is really in the hands of the Tories as to whether they allow us PR.

There isn't a left in the UK, hardly at all. The Greens are certainly on the left but no one else is.

All the rightist arguments on here basically end up saying: why have elections? Let the markets run everything.

I believe in democracy, i'm an anarchist, i don't believe in centralisation of power, of political or fiscal elites.

It is true though, that - the markets - is where real power is. Politicians are just errand boys on the make...

Nationalise all banking, democratise the state, end career politicians, stop the creation of non-existent money that is handed out to private interests and then used to screw ordinary people...

Like i say, im not holding my breath. the collapse of the current political system will come a lot quicker than democracy...because the right would rather chaos and bloodshed than democracy and peace. always buy when there is blood on the streets

so pw, how do you propose to "tax the rich"?

The 'ordinary' public sector workers in Greece retire at 53 and think it's quite ok that other 'ordinary' folk in Europe work until they're 64-67 to pay for it.

They also thought it was OK to cheat on the system, making claims for non-existent olive groves. It's been going on for years and years.

If I were a low-wage worker in Germany I'd wonder why on earth I was funding this mess.

The current market 'regulations' allowed Goldman Sachs to enact the most breathtakingly mendacious business dealings in Greek debt, for which ordinary Greek people are expected to carry the can while GS employees and shareholders bathe themselves in asses' milk.

It comes down to a very simple principle IMO. If you believe in democracy, then you allow democractically elected politicians to enact the policies that have a mandate with the public, and you get the markets under control so that they can no longer hold entire countries to ransom.

Debt markets are not regulated they are regulated. It is true though there are rules. But those rules were/are way too weak and not enforced. the regulators, the career politicians, the banks, ratings agencies were all partly responsible.

they are all part of prevailing right wing commissar-culture, one that wants to centralise power in the hands of a very narrow set of interests. and those interests have nothing to do with the interests of ordinary people.

The economy for sure. Just been watching Sky and I have to say that the LibDems are massivley over playing their hand and endangering the economy as the hours tick by.

In 12 hours, the global financial market will start trading again in NZ/Aus and gaining momentum throughout the Asian trading day. By 4.00 pm Singapore time the trading books get transferred to London and literally billions of dollars of foreign exchange start pouring through London. The the European bond markets open at 8.30 am London time and all hell will break loose.

They have until 9.00 am tomorrow morning. We do not have the luxury of negotiatng for days here. We have 24/7 global capital and news media. This is not 1974.