Which is more important now: political reform or the economy?

We are not the chosen few by any means - we weren't chosen at all DH has worked hard in the same job for nearly 20 years and did nothing to exacerbate the financial crisis - he is not in that area at all - his parents aren't rich and mine are but that is from a business started by my father who didn't have any more opportunities than anyone else in this country - he can still hardly read - I work in the NHS and see things everyday which would make you toes curl but I work bloody hard and find it incredible when people think we have been handed things on a plate.

Really I think some of you should go and live in a nice communist country for a while and see how equality for all actually works - oh no it doesn't does it, we have realised that after revolution after bloody revolution.

MadameCastafiore is right, wealth was earned by certain people and it spread into the economy. She is not claiming that it helped everybody, but the ripples of wealth helped some. In the socialist paradise of the Eastern bloc not much wealth was created, people drove Trabants and Ladas if they were lucky, and queued around the corner for a slice of meat once a week.

Gordon Brown was an honourable man when he made the speech allowing the Tories to have first go at creating a government. But he had to do that, the country would not accept otherwise. Labour are finished for years, none of their Princes in shining armour will be able to save them. The Lib Dems will join the government and build up credibility that way. They could very well start to occupy the middle ground and force Labour further left towards socialist oblivion.

at madamecastafiore

You have No Idea what life is really like, do you?

This isn't unexpected during a time of economic boom. The question is whether govt raised the floor of poverty. I think they did so to some extent eg. reducing child poverty but job wasnt done

"Tell that to my cleaner policywonk and my kids music teachers and the gardener and the tradesmen that we employ everytime we need something done - all the tradesmen I know rub their hands together at bankers bonus time - if that isn't trickle down I don't know what is."

Unbelievable. So, so out of touch. Go and tell that to Middlesbrough or Toxteth or...lists the entire UK outside W1/E1

Sorry, but these exact same arguments were trotted out over the abolition of slavery...what would the fucking plebs do if it weren't for the chosen few?

The gap between rich and poor has widened massively over the last 30 years (during the period of financial deregulation). That pretty much puts the boot into trickle-down.

Sont worry about Gordon, he will be traded in for the right price at the right time

Indeed Gordon would cut off his penis to stay in power. That's his career. Career politicians are not compatible with democracy, it just becomes the game.

Politics should be wedded to multiple referenda and a jury-service-style office (ie: not permanent) We would still make mistakes but our countries would be ruled by law, by courts, and a far greater percentage of the will of the people, even if the people do daft things we most likely wouldn't slaughter women and kids on far off lands...which would be a start.

Guys, under most scenarios Labour are in the best medium term position:

-They can sit back and wait to collect LibDem support if LibDems get together with Cons.

-They can renew themselves in a years time with a shiny new leader.

-They can come clean on Iraq, offer PR, ID cards and maybe trident to mop up LibDem support.

_They can watch Tories have to make cuts and manage the ensuing Sovereign debt crisis

They don't need to rush or panic. GB must realise this which is why he said NC and DC can have as much time as they need to get together . Dont see much downside for Labour as the other two parties

Tell that to my cleaner policywonk and my kids music teachers and the gardener and the tradesmen that we employ everytime we need something done - all the tradesmen I know rub their hands together at bankers bonus time - if that isn't trickle down I don't know what is.

Claig - im not defending things i don't say. I see Labour as a right wing party. monetarist, imperialist etc...

Ditto the Democrats and the Repubs in the US. The Democrats are still bombing wedding parties, screwing ordinary people in the US, covering up torture, refusing to prosecute war criminals...

'this post-fascist notion that the rich and rich institutions must be allowed to do what they want - so they can employ servants - is just incredible. trickle down does not exist, we have see 30 years of trickle up' - oh, bloody well said.

Gordon would cut his penis off and give it to the Queen with a red ribbon tied round it at the moment if it meant he got to stay in power.

"most of our wealth in this country comes from the financial sector"

utter utter rubbish, utter rubbish. political dogma masquerading as economics. our wealth as a nation comes from two things, a highly educated and long living work force. where your work force have zero education and die at 46 you have no wealth...

this post-fascist notion that the rich and rich institutions must be allowed to do what they want - so they can employ servants - is just incredible. trickle down does not exist, we have see 30 years of trickle up and that is a large part of why we are where we are now.

way too much power in the hands of far too few people. an oligarchy.

"I don't have a brief for Brown. He's still better than the Tories because he will offer PR in a coalition." And why do you think that is? Do yoou think it's because he suddenly sees their point and thinks that pr is a good idea? Or perhaps that it's because he is so desparate to cling to power that he will do whatever it takes to keep it, even though his own party have written him off.

Brown isn't prepared to consider PR because it's what's best for the country, he's considering it because it's what's best for Gordon Brown.

Economy no question - without a decisive government they will not be able to control interest rates with fiscal policy and we really really do need that to be under control considering the debts most households have at the moment.

If the Lib Dems want to be clever they will agree with Cameron to work together and put electoral reform on the backburner and tell everyone why they have done that - it isn;t something that should be a big issue at presnt and if they explained that to the general public they would come across a lot better than pissing and whining about electoral reform whilst the markets slide.

Dittany like it or not most of our wealth in this country comes from the financial sector and it is stupid and niaive to have that view of everyone who works in that industry - it is like saying all miners come home from the pit after getting pissed on the way home and beat their wives - a stupid stereotype.

And you have to remember that the government makes a huge amount of money - well the country does off the back of banking - all the tax it charges directly to the companies, the products they use, the people they employ who are then taxed - nationalising banking would be a stupid thing to do - no market competition - no better placed mortgages - fecking stupid to want to nationalise the one industry that earns the country and a huge percentage of the voting public their wages each month because it wouldn't just be those people who are then affected it would be every single service that those people who gain from banking employ - I have said it before but if DHs job goes up the creek we would have to sack the cleaner, the gardener and cancel gym membership, wouldn't be able to remodel the bathroom this year and stop the kids extra lesson s- that is at least I would say if it meant my friends whose husbands are in banking did that same about 20 people it would affect directly - then you have to think of the people who would be affected by those people losing thier jobs and so on and so on.

The economy is more important.

Dealing with and trying to fix the economy isn't the same thing as being dictated to by the markets. The government can do the former without thinking about the latter (good economic decisions will be reflected postively, doesn't mean they acting at the whim of greedy men in pink shirts etc).

Brown was part of it. Definitely. The end of boom and bust? Are you fucking joking? The Labour party introduced privatisation into the NHS, bailed out private rail companies, subsidised multi-nationals (tax deductions for R&D which produced no increase in R&D was just one subsidy handed out to corporate interests) and allowed offshoring, asset price inflation (which only benefits the super rich) and so on...

The idea he was of the left is just idiotic. Most of the Labour cabinet should be in the ICC in the Hague hanging from the end of ropes...next to Thatcher and Howe.

dittany, that's my point, there were ordinary folk who foresaw it, you yourself foresaw it. Of course all of them foresaw it too.

Stringent financial regulation isn't 'throwing the toys out of the pram'. All it requires is concerted political effort by people with more guts than Blair.