*LADIES* Gorgeous photo of Cameron, front cover Daily Mirror.

Nice post Sally. Good luck with the nits.

Hope virtual MN comb helped! Enjoy the election.

Sorry - the above was to BEACHCOMBER. Hope your children are in bed. Mine are - god knows if the bloody nits are with them. Possibly you having 'COMB' as part of your name gave me a subconscious need for a battle.

Just shows how much we need electoral reform in all sorts of ways.

To be honest I know exactly the sort of toffs you mean - I was at uni with a bunch of wankers who belonged to a similar club to Cameron. They trashed a hotel and didn't think it mattered because they could pay for the damage. One was the godson of a (then) prominent Tory MP. He was utterly obnoxious and quite probably still is. I do happen to know a few of them were excruciatingly embarrassed by the behaviour of their fellows and were massively and genuinely apologectic on their (uncaring and undeserving) behalf. Even in those kind of 'toff' clubs there are blokes who are genetic dickheads and blokes who are decent and good-hearted. I've been in a pub when a gang of louts from the other end of town swung in to kick over tables, threaten violence and throw their weight around. I'll bet some of them were hugely uncomfortable with what was going on and these days are quite different. My dad knew the Kray twins - they had a sense of 'born to rule' too - very much so. And not posh in the least. Just very cocky and dangerous.

I'm not posh (family all working class east enders until my parents' grammar school education shoved us up the ladder). I had a good education - both state and private - but the education that really mattered was from my family.

I think Cameron seems like a decent sort of man - I don't find him anywhere near fired up enough - but not due to a lazy sense of entitlement, more being too polite to be obviously passionate. His dad is disabled, his son died. He's been through crap stuff since his school and uni days - he might not be that Bullingdon club young man anymore. And you can only invent who is really was then anyway. His mum was a JP - perhaps he was brought up to have a sense of social responsibility rather than entitlement. Some men leave school believing erroneously that they are better than everyone else. But there is another side to public school which instils in their students a sense of duty and service. I have my doubts about George Osborne but I happen to think Cameron is one of those. I don't find him creepy despite his babyface. Although I do find Mariah Carey creepy due to hers. I've almost talked myself into rushing back to ask for my ballot paper back.

The point is, being a 'toff' shouldn't exclude anyone from politics anymore than being a 'chav' or whatever. Criticise for their dubious policies or their record whilst in the job. Going on about toffs and posh backgrounds is a weak and prejudiced attack. Not surprising from the Mirror (similar tactics to The Sun) but not worthy of the intelligent woman I imagine you to be.

There are awkward buggers wherever you go. (Fred Dibner)

I think you'll find I said white, male, able bodied and priviledged.

What's wrong with being white, male and able bodied then?

Just noticed 'Brown wasn't elected'. Yes he was in exactly the same way that every PM has been elected in the last I don't know how long - by a constituency. We don't have presidents in the UK.

It has to be someone who has famously commited a terrible crime or somesuch, surely? Perhaps a known terrorist?

Off to put my children to bed so not ignoring you either .

Nope I use toffs to describe a particular group of white male able bodied privileged people who have the sort of sense of entitlement that can only come from living in a society where you are pushed to the front of the queue regardless of whether you deserve to be there or not.

If I had the slightest inkling that Cameron is where he is purely because he is brilliant, talented and capable I wouldn't care that he is posh. (am a bit posh myself actually)

Sorry - no Habbibu - Beachcomber I meant.

So you are just maintaining the tradition of negative discrimination Beachcomber. Marvellously progressive.

I'm going to wash nits out of DD's hair so not ignoring if you respond.

I have been known to use the expression "toff". I think, in relation to the Bullingdon Club it is appropriate. I'd argue that they are not a load of the population however - merely a small hanful. Which is what bothers people when they are so over-represented in the corridors of power.

I feel sorry for GB too and I think he has a lot more integrity than Blair and most of the rest. He seems more authentic than any of the corporate managers who populate most of the Commons. It's not GB that annoys me, it's the tang of self-righteous sour grapes from a certain type of left-wing snob.

PS I used to be a cleaner in Kirkcaldy. It needed one.

"Luckily we don't discriminate against people because of their background"

Of course we do Sally, just as we discriminate against people because of their age, sex, race, religion, appearance, dress size, sexuality, need I go on.

A utopia where discrimination didn't happen would be wonderful, under it the chances are nobody in the UK would have heard of David Cameron or George Osbourne because being white male able bodied and hugely privileged wouldn't be a factor in gaining power.

who, me?

You probably use phrases like 'toffs' to lump a load of the population together? I thought so.

The electorate of Kirkcaldy voted in Gordon Brown. Just as the electorate of Finchley voted in Margaret Thatcher. The population doesn't get a say in party leadership.

I'm voting for this guy because he is just sooooo dreamy. Swoon.

BTW do all boys have an oil painting made of them when they leave Eton? I'm quite impressed.

Beachcomber - MPs are in power because they have been elected by their constituents. They are all just people. You have no idea what motivates individuals you don't know. If people put themselves forward they stand a chance. The PM is not a public school boy. Thatcher wasn't public school. The next PM MIGHT be. Luckily we don't discriminate against people because of their background and I wouldn't want to live in a society that thought that was OK.

Aah but you see those are the rules under the current system. One leader steps down another leader is voted in by his party.

If you are unhappy about that it won't change under the Tories.

Crystal123 - not quite an elected dictatorship. I don't remember anyone electing Gordon Brown. Didn't he get his job by having a posh dinner with a colleague?

Sally if 'they are just people' why are so many of them in positions of power? Privilege or coincidence? Or are they just better than the rest of us?

What about the (undemocratic) House of Lords? Are they just people too?