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Politics

All those who keep saying 'but he sold our gold' I'm interested in why it bothers you so much, ta muchly.

113 replies

Beachcomber · 04/05/2010 08:10

Thanks to anyone who wants to explain a bit to me about this because I don't really get the point you're making.

I understand that GB sold about half of the UK's gold reserves at a time when the price was quite low. It is easy to say now, with hindsight, that it wasn't a good time to sell (although that would only take into account price and not the reason behind the sale). However the money was invested in currency, right? So it isn't like it isn't there anymore, it is just in a different form (euros, dollars and yen).

Also AFAIK the point of selling some gold was to make a comitted move to an economic policy which would inhibit fluctations in inflation. GB said he was committed to stable inflation (appararantly this is what he was referring to with the 'boom and bust' statement).

So to those who seem upset about this move can you tell me why cos I don't get you. (Please try to present arguments and facts and refrain from personal attacks on the PM about being 'a liar' and 'incompetant'.)

Here is a link to something which explains how I see the gold issue.

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Callisto · 04/05/2010 12:11

Gold has been used to trade with for millenia - its intrinsic value (more than food or water for eg) is that it is desirable, a status symbol, it is valued universally so you can use it to buy stuff anywhere in the world, it doesn't devalue in times of trouble, it lasts forever, if the world ended tomorrow man would still trade with gold. Last year when the financial markets were in meltdown gold was one of the only 'currencies' that grew. Plus it is real. All of these billions that GB has wasted are notional, the huge debt that he ran up is notional (though we still owe it), there are not actually £10 million pound coins sitting in every bank vault. But gold is real.

ooojimaflip · 04/05/2010 12:07

CoteDAzur - yes Uranium would be a particularly odd choice. You could equall well use any other inert metal though - silver or platinum for instance. We just like gold because it is pretty.

CoteDAzur · 04/05/2010 12:02

If anyone knows why Gordon Brown thought it a good idea to convert gold to fiat money at that particular time, I would be interested to hear it.

CoteDAzur · 04/05/2010 11:58

re "Why gold as reserve metal?"

Aside from the rarity, gold is an inert metal. That is, it can sit in a vault for hundreds of years and it will not corrode nor decay.

Uranium, on the other hand, has a half-life of some duration I can't remember, meaning it will slowly decay over time, emitting radiation in the meanwhile for good measure.

ooojimaflip · 04/05/2010 11:38

Yes 'exchange' or uranium are rarely though to end well ;)

NetworkGuy · 04/05/2010 11:34

Sorry ooojimaflip, not a chemist, or electrical engineer so unfamiliar with all the rarer metals. The "familiarity" with precious metals is because they are also used for jewelry.

Although, for example, titanium is higher in price than some others, I don't know if it is regularly used for cosmetic purposes - it has some ideal properties but perhaps not the attraction of gold, silver, platinum, IYSWIM.

There are no doubt limited (and thus expensive) stocks of other elements, such as Uranium, etc, but we don't "trade" those in the same way, an "exchange" could be fatal!

Beachcomber · 04/05/2010 11:30

Of course there are lots of other issues to examine and debate vesela. I'm just interested in why this gold issue keeps coming up as being a major reason for trashing GB when it appears to be have been a highly complex decision.

I guess I'm kind of challenging the throwing around of overly simplistic accusations made by people who haven't really looked any further into it than I have myself.

I don't claim to know much about this but it often seems like those who keep bringing this up are ignoring the wider context.

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ooojimaflip · 04/05/2010 11:15

PFI - introduced by the Conservatives, embraced by Labour.

vesela · 04/05/2010 11:14

Beachcomber, whether it was or wasn't a mistake, my point was is that it was a one-off, and in my opinion Labour/Brown have done far worse things, economically, on a consistent and continual basis. I'd rather see the focus on that than the gold decision.

ooojimaflip · 04/05/2010 11:14

NetworkGuy - there are far more important, expensive and rarer metals in electronics than gold though aren't there? Why don't we have reserves of lanthanide elements instead? Apart from the fact that China has most of them.

Beachcomber · 04/05/2010 11:07

Ok so so far the only problem seems to be the relatively low price. That just brings me back to the question over if the gold sale has played a part in stabilising inflation then why didn't the Conservatives do it when the price was better?

Seems a bit churlish to blame Brown for selling when he did when they failed to sell at a better time (if the long term benefit is stable inflation).

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NetworkGuy · 04/05/2010 10:56

Not sure which government introduced PFI but those schemes are costing a shedload of money and while they mean that the initial sum doesn't have to be found, the overall costs (and contract length of 25 years for some) mean that they were poor deals overall, for a short-term saving for the government (ie not having to borrow tens of millions and pay it back over the same 20-odd years).

NetworkGuy · 04/05/2010 10:53

You'll also find gold plated contacts in all sorts of things electrical, Riven.

Think the point is that unlike currency, where a government can "print more" leading to suitcases full of cash, only useful for burning for warmth or to boil a kettle, there is always a pretty high value on precious (and these days, not so precious) metals, and keeping hold of quantities of gold is like having insurance.

GB's gold sale forced a "low" in the market and the UK was the loser for it. He won't ever want to talk about it, of course, as it was an error of judgement, and he wants only to be seen as having made "correct" decisions.

Beachcomber · 04/05/2010 09:58

But vesela was it a mistake if it has played the intended role in stabilizing inflation which is quite an achievement really? (and a major factor in riding out the global recession).

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vesela · 04/05/2010 09:54

Much as I don't like Brown, I'm prepared to give him a pass on this one. It was a mistake, an expensive mistake and maybe one that's symptomatic of his behaviour. But politicians do make one-off mistakes.

I'm more concerned about the way in which Labour's spent way too much money by co-opting the private sector in a totally inappropriate way that's resulted in the companies involved being able to take the piss and in public services and infrastructure projects being WAY more expensive than they need to be. Instead of taking a "let government do what it does best and companies what they do best," Labour has mixed the two up in an unholy alliance.

Plus all the other Labour mindsets that have resulted in wasted money. These aren't one-off mistakes, they're a permanent state of mind.

Beachcomber · 04/05/2010 09:50

Good idea megcleary. I would be really interested in GB's comments. There was obviously a reason for all this.

I would be interested to know what the current value of the investment is now compared to what it was at the time.

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ooojimaflip · 04/05/2010 09:47

TBH - you could probably do without the antibiotics and water purification as you could use your other purchases to get them.

ooojimaflip · 04/05/2010 09:46

If you want a global collapse hedge you want to be buying guns, antibiotics, water purification tablets and some more guns. Not gold.

megcleary · 04/05/2010 09:45

He bought yen, euros and dollers all doing fab at the moment!

I think the views here show this is a question people have an interset ,aybe we should ask MNHQ to pass it on to GB?

sarah293 · 04/05/2010 09:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Beachcomber · 04/05/2010 09:41

I agree with oojimaflip, it would appear that the gold standard is largely psychological. In trying to find out about all this I keep reading that the historical reasons for the gold standard are now largely irrelevant.

A lot of people I talk to seem to think that the gold was sold and the money has been spent. It hasn't, it has been converted from one form of reserve to another. Leaving the price aside (unless one wants to get into an historical discussion of why the Conservatives didn't sell the gold much earlier when prices where better on their watch) why is it a bad thing to have a part of one's reserves in currencies?

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Beachcomber · 04/05/2010 09:33

Haliborange I have looked at the Telegraph article which I have seen before. I'm still no further forward. I still don't see the problem. OK the price was low but was the currency GB wanted to invest in low at that time to? Does anyone know why he chose to sell when he did?

Where would the UK be now if he hadn't taken the inflation controlling measures he did (of which this seems to be a major one)?

He sold the gold around the same time he was warning of a major global financial crisis. Many experts thought he was exaggerating in his predictions about the crisis, were these the same experts/school of experts who were advising him he didn't need to sell the gold? Maybe it is just as well he didn't listen to them.

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ooojimaflip · 04/05/2010 09:32

Igglybuff - yes, but. Most of the historical reasons it was useful have gone (If it was THAT useful it would be being used instead of sitting in vaults anyway). What is it good for now? I don't see that our attachment to gold is any more rational that our attachment to the USD. It is only worth what it is worth because everyone agrees that it is worth what it is worth. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns and all that ;)

Igglybuff · 04/05/2010 09:30

beach gold does retain value over the long term - yes there are short term fluctuations but over time it does (I think).

However as financial markets move on and economies grow I suspect that gold might lose its allure as a reserve?

Igglybuff · 04/05/2010 09:27

Oooj - gold has always been highly sought after - hence gold medals, golden rule etc etc. It's not just pretty, it's properties mean it has had a wide range of uses. It's a historical fact that gold has always had value to man.
Also gold used to directly underpin currency (our banknotes talk about paying the bearer the sum of"x pounds") - prior to that gold coins were used.