Tax Credits = benefit-dependent society?

YOu know cordon I don't think it is just aused by worketghic

They genuinely did lift some famillies from poverty

When we had ds1, we both worked FT but we earned a joint income of £22k and that was before TC's: we were totally and utterly skint and it was really hard work just to get by if anything broke. We were genuinely working poor. No top ups or any kind of benefits except CB and we both ahd to run a car for work.

Nowadays we don't live in luxury but we can repalce the washing amchine if it runs out and although our coats are usually second hand, if they break we can replace them without someoone going without lunch for a few days to cut the shopping bill.

The don't wanna works have always been tehre- tehyw ere there in the reighties as they are now- but TC's weren't set up to help those but those who wer really trying.

To go back to OP - yes, they've made people dependent on the state.

As for the rest - I've tears rolling down my unsympathetic face at the tales of woe faced by a family taking home 100K plus per annum and finding it a struggle to get by.

well, I have to be honest and say that I don't know much about politics so I am not able to have an intelligent debate on the pro's and con's of a society that requires top ups and incentives from the government to go back to work instead of claiming full benefits!

Perhaps it reflects the low work ethic of some people in this country. But perhaps low work ethic is caused by the availability of benefits and the assumption that they will be better off not working (which is actually rarely the case) vicious circle?!

I'm sorry too foureleven. I think perhaps our circumstances are very different despite both being single parents at some point. Do you mind if I ask whether you were with your DD's father for some time prior to becoming a single parent? I only ask because I have always been completely on my own with DD, her father has never had anything to do with her/us let alone pay a penny towards her upbringing. So I don't know any different.

I just took offence at being called lazy when, from my perspective, I am far from it When you've suffered from severe depression and even getting out of bed or having a shower is a huge struggle, to get to the point I'm at now has taken a lot of hard work, physically and mentally.

I want to be a good role model for DD. I want to show her how important it is to get a good education, a good job and to pay your own way in life. I don't want her to end up like me doing it the hard way.

Good for you cordonbleugh. I am studying towards a Modern Language degree also with the OU. Like you, I want to get a well paid job, so I don't ever again have to rely on ANYONE, least of all a man! I should graduate in 2013 also. I think it is a good investment for society as well as for my son and myself. However, for these 6 years studying it would be totally unrealistic to expect someone to work full time and bring up a young child single handed.

No I am not disgusted to learn that. In my line of work I know all about these incentives and I am undecided as to whether all of them are a good thing or not. I mean clearly they are there to encourage people to go back in to work, great. But what has happened to society that we need any more incentive than having a job and paying our way. No one would have given my grandma money for getting a job when she and my grandad were hard up with a young family 40 years ago..?

cordonbleugh, I am sorry we have ended up rowing. I actually took huge offence to the women (who has disappeared) who claimed that she had every right to stay at home with her child and have her pay topped up because she didnt want her child to be institutionalised. Then there was someone else making out that a mother is incapable of working full time.

Somehow you and I have got in to an arguement when to be honest I actually based on your last post I have no issue with what you are doing!!!!

TBH I think retraining works well for teh country longer term- better 3 years on PT wages then 40 on a decent income than 43 on a crao wage that always needs topping up

So personally, I ahve no issue with that

You are working too hard fio

ok, I have already said previously in this thread, that I could work full time. I'm not disputing that.

My reason for choosing to work part time, is that I need to be able to fit in my degree as well. If I worked full time, I wouldn't have time to do it on top of everything else. Maybe that is selfish, but I need this degree to increase my chances of getting a well paid full time job which will enable me to be self sufficient.

My degree should be completed in october 2013. In the months leading up to the end of my degree, I will be looking for a full time job. As soon as I have that degree certificate in my hands, I hope to have a full time job.

Then the issue of spending time with DD will be a non issue because she will be in school full time anyway.

The benefit of my part time job is that it is in the field that I want to work in anyway, it will provide me with invaluable experience (which also furthers my chances of getting a decent full time job) and will look good on my CV.

The government has provided me with incentives to come off income support and go back to work 16+ hours a week. I have very gratefully taken them up on what they offer, and I don't feel guilty at all.

I suppose you'll be disgusted to learn that as well as tax credits (working, child and childcare element), the government will give me a one off job grant of £250, and and extra £40 a week for 52 weeks just for going back to work in the first place (in work credit)?

Oh I know you didn't foureleven

And no cjhildcare doesn't stop me nbeing self employed at some point and I am owrking towards that, but need to qualify first. Will get there though and then will rule the world feel really good and know i've earned it!

DS1 (the one who cannot acccess childcare) is 10; in six years he will be at college or similar and I will be 42. The younger kids (including mroes evere but less violent ds3) can use after school provision so I still ahve a good 25+ work left in me yet- this is a blip. Nothing more.

(no childcare we can use sadly) - that is not a good situation to be in and having the choice taken away from you because of that is not a good thing at all. I appreciate that but at no point ever in my life have I flamed anyone for working part time/ not working/ being a SAHM whatever, if they really couldnt.

It's those that as you rightly say 'give others a bad name' that get to me. Its the attitude these days (in general, not just on this subject) of, I can make my own lifestyle choices because the state will foot the bill.

Its the sense of entitlement that a lot of people have because they are a parent when actually being a parent makes it all the more important to push yourself out there and work your arse off.

sorry

I just get when people say that lots of people are earning lots of money, that the average wage is huge, that sort of thing. It's usually done by wealthy people to make them feel better about their incomes, and is nonsense. So I pop out of a hatch every time it's said

And I think people who choose to claim when they could self support give the rest of us a bad nbame fourelven

if you came to me with a job that enabled me to be ablout for SNU / school runs (no childcare we can use sadly) and be about for half terms (DH can do holidays but not half terms) I would snap your hands off

Those jobs are far between, sadly, and the odler I get the ahrder it is to find them (I was in charity sector and l;ast two palces I worked now folded taking my references with them, although still studying / recently graduated and have refs there)

What I think people really don't understand the value of until it is taken away is choice. Yes I used to whine about long hours when I did work, but goodness I would love to have teh chance to whine now! Because it would mean the bolys were somehow 'cured'.

In fact, learning how it is to have no choice has been the hardest lesson of my little life.

But being a single mother doesnt put you in the catagory of 'have no choice' but to work part time.

I hope I never end up in a situation where I have no choice but to claim full benefits or can only work part time. Many end up in that situation; they have a disabled child, they are made redundant and can only find part time work etc etc and yes it could happen to me.

But being a single mother doesnt put you in the catagory of 'have no choice' but to work full time.

I may have mentioned that I run a business that helps people back in to employment. I met a woman today who was fit, healthy and bright. She had an 8 year old who was in school full time.

When I said to her I had a full time vacancy that i could help her to prepare for an interview for she looked at me like I was barking and said - oh no, I am only ABLE to work part time because I HAVE to do the school pick up, my daughter only likes me to pick her up. Besides, my tax credits will top up the rest -

Now, my daughter would prefer me to pick her up too. There are far far less part time jobs than full time ones at the moment.

This woman is making out that she is UNABLE to work full time when actually it is a lifestyle choice because she believes she is incapable of working full time and being a mother.

She went on to say she would be exhausted and wouldnt have any quality of life etc etc if she worked part time and her daughter would suffer because of the 2 hours a night that she would have to speand with a childminder.

I wonder how much of women beleiving they cant work fulltime is to do with self belief? I mean, its hardly working down the mines for 12 hours a day. It aint that tiring!!

Totally agree FIo

And as very, very few people are so well off hey are totally immune from hardship via disability etc, even when working it is good to know a safety net that enable you to keep your home etc exists.

Oh and I do agree it's a shame we need those top ups (and that we are a non typical family) but the rents etc habve risen dramtically since TC's as have many prices due to the amount people have coming in and as such pulling them now for anyone much (I have no feelings on the £50k thing- can see both ssides tbh) would lead to a direct increase of homelessness etc and all teh costs that entails instead.

And a lot of allied issues- such as childhood deprivation and the furure societal costs that brings.

My kid don't know we're 'poor' (am not sure we are but certainly we are low income, there's a difference) and that's a positive: they see tehir dad work long hors and I want them to associate with that working culture, not a poverty one we happen to have landed in due to circumstances. One generation hit by bad luck hopefully temporarily is vastly different to it becoming inter-generational poverty.

But also agree that work is more than a £; I almost certainly won't get it but am applying for some on call / sumemr work becuase although income wise it won't help (will lose carers etc for that time) it will help me feel like a human being again.

And just not being on benefits; I ahd my eyesight update earlier, the lady behind the desk saw I had been tested in 2008 and said ' you do know that we won't accept a voucher twice in 2 uuyears don't you, tehre's only so many times you can expect the state to pay'- rather upset (aI was already really ambarassed at using the voucher) I explained I had never had a free eyesight test before and had always paid until DH lost his job, she sort of apologised and slunk off but by then I was back in the barely-cop9ing mess I was trying to emerge from: benefits do nothing for ones self esteem.

I also agree with FF, there is a huge difference between someone who has a partner to lend a hand with the responsibilities and a lone parent who has to do it all alone.

This is even harder when there is NO contact/visitation/shared custody, and quadrupled when there is no extended family to lend a hand.

It's totally unfair to critisise a mum who is trying really hard to balance everything. At least those workign PT with TCs are TRYING, and not just sitting at home 24/7 living off the state.

What does 'fair' have to do with anything?

throughout this whole thread, you have slagged off tax credits, maybe only when they are claimed to top up part time earnings, but still.

What I meant was I seriously hope you never end up in a situation where you have no choice but to claim either full benefits, or top ups due to working part time since it is so clearly beneath you.

Anyway, this is starting to get personal now, which is really not like me at all, I don't want to overstep the mark.

Oh, and thankyou by the way, for conceding on your point about degrees. fwiw, I thing southsbelle was being sarcastic when she said "just for fun".

Why is it not fair that we can get our income topped up? People choose to work less hours for various reasons, sometimes it's beyond their capabilities to work full time.

It's the government you should be taking issue with, not the people claiming what they are entitled to.