I can't tell you how much I hope the Conservatives win the election.

and you think the Tories are going to extend the NHS?

LOL.

you really are deluded.

Actually for me it is not mostly about money.

What about the homophobia, the xenophobia, the narrow belief in what a British person should be (or anyone!)? The fact that they are only supportive of one kind of family unit and of one kind of relationship??

I want a progressive government......

caterS!

I have yet to come across a party which cater for the needs of only one family. Possibly the monarchy but I don't believe they are standing for election.

'Don't most people vote for the party they think will take best care of their personal values?'

Yes, but not everyone votes according to what would be best for their own family alone...

Why do Labour supporters think they are the 'caring' members of society who vote for the good of their fellows whereas Tory supporters are by definition selfish gits who only vote to get the best for themselves? There are plenty of posts on MN in support of Labour which also point out the belief they will be better off personally by voting that way. Are there Labour voters on MN who genuinely feel their own families will be WORSE off under Labour but will vote for them anyway purely for the good of their country?

Don't most people vote for the party they think will take best care of their personal values?

I have not voted Tory for a long time so don't mistake me for a Cameron fan. Still I think this attitude, typical of a large number of left-wingers, shows nothing but their own petty snobbery. I live in an area with strong Tory support, although it's not a safe seat and is currently Lib Dem. You can't avoid the constant fund-raising, volunteering and energetic involvement of the very trad Tory 'ladies who lunch' throwing all their spare time and much private cash into supporting local hospices, cancer charities, the arts, retired soldiers, terminally ill kids, hospital visiting, conservation, lifeboats etc etc. They choose where to lend their financial support, it is not guided by the state, but that doesn't mean they are greedy misers who keep it all for themselves.

Incidentally it is typical Tories like them, and typical socialists who do exactly the same kind of work for the groups/charities THEY care about which makes me feel the whole Cameron 'invitation to Get Involved' was a patronising mistake along the lines of his 'Broken Society' - what broken society has that many people, across all parties, always willing to give their time and available resources so generously?

Grow up the lot of you. Different views don't denote lack of common humanity.

Yes Stripeysocks - the Telegraph is unbiased isn't it?

Give me a break.

"Thatcher allowed everything to move abroad."

That's funny because she did a deal to bring foreign manufacturers ie; car plants to the UK, how many workers benefitted from that?

Haven't seen Labour supporting the manufacturers lately have you?

They usually have more scholarships, too, because of the high number of them with athletic teams.

But again, Seth, it is not expected to get a free education.

Even the very poor will get grants and perhaps some scholarships, but a true 'free ride' is quite rare.

It's also much more expected for students to combine work and study.

Beyond a discount at the cinema and other attractions, they don't get breaks, like decreased council tax (well, property tax is usually rolled into your rent) for being a student.

Even with military service, for university courses, a GI grant will usually only cover tuition and fees.

There are some exceptions, such as military academies, vocational education undertaken during active duty and/or medical personnel.

They get/will get the maximum grant available, they do/will have to work to support themselves and will have £20k of debt at the end of it. I'm not wanting free higher education but would like affordable for everyone higher education

Expat - American universities have way more scholarships than UK ones, because we have a tradition of government-funded higher ed and less generous alumni, plus a uni system that is not yet structured around allowing students to work. Things will need to change here.

'Personally, I think everyone should be entitled to a free shot at higher ed/further ed/vocational training.'

That's hardly a conservative line of thought. LOL. That's about as socialist as it gets.

'Are you honestly saying, that because I am not a high earner, my children do not deserve to try and get 1. a profession they would enjoy 2. a profession that actually gives something back to society because I don't have the money???'

Um, no, because I never wrote that.

I wrote FREE! Free higher education.

So you're telling me, with your level on income, they don't qualify for any grants at all?

Plenty don't where I'm from. It's never been expected or seen as a barrier to getting a higher education.

You work, something the Tories are so adamant everyone does, so why not students, too?, you get loans/grants if you qualify, or you volunteer for military service.

Or you're superstud or supersportsperson and you get a bursary.

Oxford and Cambridge crew teams are full of Yanks there on scholarships.

So don't go twisting my post around because it's weak.

expat, I have given my children free reigns to chose the career they want. They have all chosen professions that require a degree bar one, all have chosen teaching for some bizarre reason, the 3 have chosen special needs teaching in particular. I have no sense of entitlement at all. I would have been happy with whatever they had chosen

I am a single working parent that earns less than 20k a year. I do not fund them at all, I can't afford to. They ALL work, even the ones that haven't got to university yet. The one that didn't choose a degree profession, now works fulltime on minimum wage

Are you honestly saying, that because I am not a high earner, my children do not deserve to try and get 1. a profession they would enjoy 2. a profession that actually gives something back to society because I don't have the money???

'My children will never afford property, they will all start work with £20k of debt'

Why? Because you feel you're entitled to free higher education?

Where I come from, you have never gotten that, ever, unless you served, were serving or commited yourself to serve in the military, are extremely poor or someone else pays for it.

Other than that, you either take out loans or you work your way through so you pay for both it and your expenses.

And it's not cheap.

But no one blames the government for not handing them a free degree.

Where do people get that? Talk about a sense of entitlement and socialist! Get real!

I've actually lived in several banana republics, b4. Many 'non-doms' do, too, on paper.

Instead of bitching about having to pay tax, because a society with a good infrastructure is just such a hassle, they bitch about blackouts for days on end, lack of a steady supply of clean water, things like that.

I think everyone who moans about taxes should go live in one. For real.

Don't forget the DEET!

Well rather than subsidise shipbuilding to save jobs and communities Thatcher allowed everything to move abroad. That was not about the unions and is only one example.

'I was a teenager in the 1980s...' Good for you I was in my 2os, trying to get a job after university, living in a hell hole of a city with no jobs, decaying buildings and thousands on the dole because no jobs existed for the poor sods who were skilled manual labourers.

Labour didn't kill off manufacturing - fact.

is that to me?

I think it is fairer, council/poll tax pays for local services - refuse collection, education, social services, police etc. A single middle aged man will most probably use less services than two adults with children. The size of the property is irrelevant

so you think would be fair for a middle aged man in a 6 bed detached to pay less than a young family with 2 children living in a 2 bed flat?

Just clarifying.

scaredoflove: Of course we were protesting about how much we had to pay. My elderly next door neighbour at the time was happy9ish) to pay her £200 a year it was the 100% hike to £400 she objected to!

I agree, Lady BlahBlah